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sumnihil
New Member
USA
39 Posts |
 Posted - 02/23/2005 : 20:32:06 [Permalink]
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i have just come from a fairly long (and infinitely disturbing) examination of evolutionfairytale.com. the self righteousness there is actually physically nauseating. especially this fred williams character. his haughty air is what disturbs me most. i've heard the arguments he holds for creationism many times (who hasn't?), but rarely have i ever seen them defended with such malignant glee. he is a master of the "get 'em good and pissed and then be righteously indignant when they get mad, because you never actually said anything insulting or condescending to them, they just took it that way" school of debate. i did some research on the site, had a whole list of questionable calls, as an administrator--and as a decent human being--cut and pasted to notepad, ready to try a lengthy post citing every one of his faux pas (and i still might, possibly in a new thread. i'll have to work on it a while, i want it to be a good post. who knows, i might even go for some capitalization....nahhhh.) but then i found a post which tells anyone anything and everything they need to know about fred williams:
http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/articles_debates/hager_debate_page.htm
after reading this post, i am glad he declined the invitation. if this guy had actually shown up here, my head would have exploded in frustration. literally.
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all great truths began as blasphemies.
--g.b. shaw
yes, i am aware that i do not use capital letters. it is discrimination, and discrimination is wrong. period. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 04:57:32 [Permalink]
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He does come off as a tad snotty, doesn't he?
My dissapointment that he'll not grace us with his wisdom and insights grows. I was really hoping to have an enlightening discussion with him, as I'm sure were some (most?) others of us.
Perhaps he or some of his minions will begin to feel challenged and show up yet. One can only hope.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 10:53:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
The only purpose I see in such a debate is to tone my knowledge, and secondly to perhaps reach the fence-sitting observer. Given the title of your forum, I suspect there would be very few of those folks.
And naming a forum evolutionfairytale.com would attract any fence-sitters?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 12:20:56 [Permalink]
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My thoughts on Mike's reply:
"How to Argue With A Fundamentalist"
"I refer you to your own beliefs and advise you to look to the beam in your own eye." TOUCHE', Mike. Right down the throat of context.
There is no "scientific" argument against creation. God/Earth Creation requires intelligence beyond the existence of mass. To my knowledge, science has not addressed the possibility. (personal note to Beskeptigal )
"I must maintain that argument against evolution is not evidence in favor of creationism." Mike spoke as if he were the type of Christian I am... whatever that is.
And they wonder why I choose to spend my time with Evolutionists. Nice job by Mike.
Of course we'll disagree on the Creation thing but, hey, what's one small point? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 12:41:57 [Permalink]
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The thing that we must not forget in these discussions is that evolution and creation are mutually exclusive. The Theory of Evolution states nothing about the beginnings, only about what happened afterward.
Why do creationists have such difficulty understanding this? Nobody gives a dingo's kidney as to how it all started, except those researching abiogenesis and we'll get their findings in due course.
If it's the only ammunition they have, it's a puffer load.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 13:09:53 [Permalink]
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And Fred replies:
quote:
Hi David,
Your forum may be as you claim, I apologize for assuming the worst since I haven't even been over there except for a few cursory glances. But to be honest I just don't have the time or desire to visit it. It is nothing personal against you at all. Heck, I barely have time to keep tabs on my forum, I am easily the least active of *all* my current Admins! The only reason I started a forum was because my guestbook was becoming just too hard
to manage, and via encouragement of my friend who owns the server company I use, I decided to give the forum a shot.
As far as Peptide and Tomk80, I don't know all the specifics on the Peptide ban, but I trust the judgment of my admins. I do know that he was not banned just because he was identified with your forum. I also know that Tomk80 was already on thin ice with three Admins, including myself. But I don't really need to explain anything, the great majority of time there is going to be a good reason and we are not required to share our reasons with anyone, especially anonymous posters such as these two. I'm sure there will be a few that get caught in our cranked-up filter that perhaps didn't deserve their fate, we are going to make mistakes. But I'd rather err on the heavy filter side than the soft mod side. We are looking for quality over quantity, and
foremost for me is to remove anyone who is simply out to waste other's time, subconsciously or otherwise.
Good luck with your forum.
Sincerely,
Fred Williams
I will probably not respond to this one. Any further communication with Fred would be an exercise in futility. That much is clear. His closing statement amuses me, though.
quote:
We are looking for quality over quantity, and
foremost for me is to remove anyone who is simply out to waste other's time, subconsciously or otherwise.
I especially like “subconsciously or otherwise” whatever the hell that means. Hey Peptide, stop subconsciously wasting other peoples time!
I would really like to hear from Peptide and Tomk80 for a blow by blow of exactly what went down. I am thinking of writing an article about creationist forums in a sort of general way, and using Fred's forum specifically as the example of what kind of treatment can be expected for those who feel the need to argue with creationists on their turf.
Edited to add:
quote:
sumnihil:
i did some research on the site, had a whole list of questionable calls, as an administrator--and as a decent human being--cut and pasted to notepad, ready to try a lengthy post citing every one of his faux pas (and i still might, possibly in a new thread. i'll have to work on it a while, i want it to be a good post. who knows, i might even go for some capitalization....nahhhh.
Hey sumnihil. Perhaps what you write can be included as a companion piece. Or, as part of the same article. You would have to capitalize however…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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David Mc
Skeptic Friend
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 13:33:32 [Permalink]
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I sincerely believe that (if my history is correct and Darwin excluded intelligence from Evolution) my "Faith" is still reeling from the original concept. They have completely lost sight of the exploration ever since.
What was impossible? Virgin birth? Science has proven that it's possible.
Life from nothing? Science is in the process of proving that it's possible.
Science continues to pursue every "impossiblity" of my belief.
When it comes to pompous b*st*rds that would exclude themselves from the truth and demean the very people that are leading us closer to it, setting themselves up as God's own judge driving away the very people......... (shit)
I get frustrated with my Fundamentalist brothers sometimes.
What I meant to say was, "You're right, Filthy" |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 13:53:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by David Mc
What was impossible? Virgin birth? Science has proven that it's possible.
What science has ever proven that a god can impregnate a woman without intercourse?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 02/24/2005 13:53:50 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 14:25:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Originally posted by David Mc
What was impossible? Virgin birth? Science has proven that it's possible.
What science has ever proven that a god can impregnate a woman without intercourse?
Well, some species of whiptails and geckos experience parthenogenesis -- virgin birth..... Aha! God is a lizard!
All has become clear.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 02/24/2005 14:28:32 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 15:00:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
David MC:
When it comes to pompous b*st*rds that would exclude themselves from the truth and demean the very people that are leading us closer to it, setting themselves up as God's own judge driving away the very people......... (shit)
Those pompous bastards need to believe they have the truth. And therefore, all other truths are wrong. Critical thinking is not their strong suit. The idea that science goes where it goes, no matter how uncomfortable where it goes may make some of us, is not a concept that those people can deal with. The reason science does not take God into consideration is because science is in the business of sorting out the natural world. Whether or not God has a hand in it is not relevant to the subject. Whatever ideas we may have about God one thing can be said with some amount of certainty. The idea of God is not falsifiable. And that puts the idea of God outside of the most important tool of the scientific method. And that is the ability to confirm or reject a hypothesis.
I feel sorry for biblical literalists. They have been butting their heads against the same wall since the time of Galileo and probably before. I can't think of a single instance when a literalist view prevailed in this seemingly endless battle with science. Given enough time, they have come to terms with what was obvious only to be thrust into a new battle to save them from having to alter yet another absolute certainty. Putting the cart before the horse is not only a lot of work, it is a loosing proposition.
The arrogance of a Fred Williams or a Kent Hovind is not all that surprising if you think about it. It is the thunder of a storm that will, if history serves, peter out and eventually disappear in the face of the obvious. Given recent advancements in science, I even think that these guys may sense that the end of the debate is coming. I dunno. But their unwillingness to debate on a level playing field must mean they are hip to something, even if they don't really know what it is yet. |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 15:59:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by David Mc
Science continues to pursue every "impossiblity" of my belief.
Indeed, this is why some Christian evolutionary biologists are so upset with the fundamentalists and the "Intelligent Design" crowd, both. Every time some "creation scientist" points to a "gap" in scientific knowledge, saying "therefore God did it," and science later fills in that gap, there's less room for God. This makes such pronouncements both bad science and bad religion.quote:
When it comes to pompous b*st*rds that would exclude themselves from the truth and demean the very people that are leading us closer to it, setting themselves up as God's own judge driving away the very people......... (shit)
I get frustrated with my Fundamentalist brothers sometimes.
Kil came close to offering up one of the reasons behind the "disconnect" that's got you flustered.
The fundamentalists, generally, believe the truth to be shown to them by Divine revelation, and as such can never change. But scientific "truths" (of which there really are none) are prone to change with the next iteration of research, in an asymtotic approach towards reality. If what science tells us can change (the YECs reason), then it cannot be the Truth-with-a-capital-T. So it must just be a "belief"; so scientists who insist that evolution is correct are just dogmatic; so it's really a religion; and so our religion should be given equal time in public schools; yadda yadda yadda...
End result: annoyed biologists and annoyed Christians. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sumnihil
New Member
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 18:02:50 [Permalink]
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i've been over at that site for two hours reading through fred's articles and poring over the links. i need a bath. ugh....this guy is unbeleivable! he actually links to a site that blames evolutionists for the holocaust!. i will repeat that. he actually links to a site that blames evolutionists for the holocaust!.
and kil- i will be writing a piece on mr. williams, submitted for your approval--before posting, it is your forum after all, and i doubt i'll be able to keep all ad homs out of this one--by the weekend. that way, i can blame you if it shows up here with caps. :) |
all great truths began as blasphemies.
--g.b. shaw
yes, i am aware that i do not use capital letters. it is discrimination, and discrimination is wrong. period. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 18:10:05 [Permalink]
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| You dont have to submit a post for my approval. An article was what I was thinking... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 21:00:09 [Permalink]
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sumnihil, you can submit it to me by email, seeing as I am the editor around here. Copy Kil's email on it, so he can read it while I work.quote:
he actually links to a site that blames evolutionists for the holocaust!. i will repeat that. he actually links to a site that blames evolutionists for the holocaust!.
Yeah, this is a pretty common tactic for demonizing the nasty "evilutionists." Of course, evolution wasn't really mentioned by the Nazis, but Martin Luther was. And here is a recent Panda's Thumb article which touches on the subject, and the comments go even further into it.
Funny: creationists also blame evolution for communism, which was not only the political opposite of Hitler's fascism, but Stalin was an ardent anti-Darwinist (evolution didn't fit well with dialectical materialism). So, the creationists are rather scatterbrained when it comes to real history and real consistency. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 21:35:32 [Permalink]
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Indeed. I have argued this point ad nauseum.
Floating around here somewhere in a list of quotes taken from Hitler's writings and speechs. Nowhere does he tout the ToE, not even in Mein Kamph.
Hitler was a Catholic and, from his writings and speechs, a pretty serious one, even to the extent of having, "Gott Mit Uns" cast into the German Army's belt buckles.
Codswallop. All codswallop, and typical of those who have no solid argument.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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