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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26025 Posts |
 Posted - 03/24/2005 : 12:08:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Rubicon95
If the state decides to take guardianship, then the SCOTUS should act.
As various commentators have noted in the news today, if the state takes this action, it will put some doctor in a completely untennable situation: either reconnect the feeding tube and defy a court order, or refuse to follow what is effectively an order from the Governor.quote:
What I find abhorrent, is the use of the Judiciary to determine which doctor's report is correct.
Unfortunately, this happens all the time. The opinon of even a huge consensus of reputable scientists never has the power of law until a judge (or two or twelve or 100) agrees with the science (or the legislature agrees with it).
One thing I think would help is a special kind of "science court," with judges who have received scientific training. And judges would "specialize" in medicine, physics, psychology, etc. Court cases would begin as usual, in normal courts, but if the case seems to turn on a scientific point, the lawyers file briefs with the science court, bring forward experts, and the science court hands its decision back to the normal court for the continuation of the trial.
But that's a pipe dream, obviously. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 12:59:20 [Permalink]
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| I understand that in France, instead of having each side hire scientific experts, that it is the court that hires scientific experts. This sounds like an interesting idea, although the science court is a good idea, too. |
trish |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 13:41:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by trishran
I understand that in France, instead of having each side hire scientific experts, that it is the court that hires scientific experts.
That's an interesting idea. Who pays the experts?
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 13:51:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
One thing I think would help is a special kind of "science court," with judges who have received scientific training. And judges would "specialize" in medicine, physics, psychology, etc.
And of course, Dave, they'll need experts in cuneiform studies. Just in case... |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 14:00:06 [Permalink]
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In case the living will is written in sanscript of course...
Dont forget we'll need a fairness advocate on the commitee to make sure that all idiotic viewpoints get equal time... |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 14:42:07 [Permalink]
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During last night's chat, my wife stopped down to inform me of a rather silly statement by Pat Buchannan. I will quote the Transcript from Chris Matthew's Hardball.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7286474/
It's halfway down the page.
"PAT BUCHANAN, NBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think they‘re dead wrong with regard to the president of the United States.
What George Bush ought to do right now is send federal marshals in and pick up Terri Schiavo and put that breathing tube back into her—excuse me, the food and hydration tube back into her, as this is taken up to the United States Supreme Court. He took an oath, Chris, to defend the Constitution of the United States. He has got an obligation, as well as these judges do, to defend that Constitution. And that means to protect this woman‘s life."
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 16:17:45 [Permalink]
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I found this part more disturbing:
quote:
MATTHEWS: If the president of the United States sends federal marshals into that town down there in Florida.
BUCHANAN: Takes her.
MATTHEWS: Grabs her, put her—takes control of her body, I guess, takes control of her, under what authority?
BUCHANAN: He does it. He‘s a—look, a woman is...
MATTHEWS: Under what authority of the law?
BUCHANAN: I‘m president of the United States. I have got to upheld the Constitution. An American citizen is being put to death by a judge in a wrongful decision. I think it‘s wrong.
Jefferson threw out—he put every—let everybody out of prison. Jefferson said, I‘m not prosecuting anybody under the Alien and Sedition Act. Action, Chris, creates consensus. What do you think Congress would do? They would accept it. The president then should send a law to Congress saying, look, when you have a case where parents, husband and a woman who is simply brain-damaged, we do not put them to death in the United States.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: And, in other words, the president can do what he wants to do.
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You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 00:49:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
What I find abhorrent, is the use of the Judiciary to determine which doctor's report is correct. politicizing medical science, a legislative branch who never before cared about Terry but now are grandstanding for votes, gov't intrusion into the bond between a husband and wife.
(emphasis mine)
Well, you get what you vote for. It is entirely the fault of evangelical christians who have demonstrated that they can be made to vote against their own best interests by politicians who pander to their alledged "values". This whole thing with the congress is NOTHING more than an attempt to mobilize the "right to life" evangelicals for the 2006 midterm elections.
Bet it works too.
Maybe one fo these days people will realize that W and his republican controlled congress haven't done a single thing to benefit the vast majority of people who voted for them. In fact, they have (and will continue to) screw them royally, and the evangelicals just sit back and smile because their favorite politician is voting for the ban on gay marriage in congress, etc... pathetic.
Now the congress has decided (using the Schaivo case) that they think they should have judicial power as well. And, the ignorant among us will cheer wildly as these neo-cons undermine the balance of powers of our government. Makes me sick.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 06:40:34 [Permalink]
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At this point, I think all of the posturing and grandstanding is going to backfire. The polls I am seeing consistantly show that a huge majority do not want government interfering in family affairs, including many conservative evangelicals.
The end of Terri's body will be soon now, but the fallout will be with us for a long time to come as various polititions spout apologetics for their outrageous behavior.
Further, I and others doubt the constitionality of the attempted, federal intervention and wonder if charges of ethical violations could be brought. It would be a boon to the country as well as just, plain nice to see Frist and DeLay shitcanned.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 06:57:07 [Permalink]
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And of course, the out patients are coming out again. I just found this pathetic story quote:
Man Tries to Steal Gun to 'Rescue Schiavo'
By Associated Press
March 25, 2005
SEMINOLE, Fla. -- A man was arrested after trying to steal a weapon from a gun shop so he could "take some action and rescue Terri Schiavo," authorities said.
Michael W. Mitchell, of Rockford, Ill., entered Randall's Firearms Inc. in Seminole just before 6 p.m. Thursday with a box cutter and tried to steal a gun, said Marianne Pasha, a spokeswoman for the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office.
Mitchell, 50, told deputies he wanted to "take some action and rescue Terri Schiavo" after he visited the Pinellas Park hospice where she lives, Pasha said.
This sad sack either never heard the saying, "Never take a knife to a gunfight!" or else he has, but has no faith in it. It is a tribute to the shop owner's generosity that he wasn't shot down in his tracks.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26025 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 08:28:24 [Permalink]
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This morning, NPR described Randall Terry as the spokesman for the Schindler family.
With any luck, Rqandall's current crusade - that politicians who fail to do as they promise will be punished for it - will work out. I think it'll mean a lower possibility of evangelicals making it into the White House and/or Congress and then legislating based on the Bible.
On the other hand, a rather surprising CNN poll yesterday showed that only 20-something percent of "white evangelicals" thought that putting Mrs. Schiavo's feeding tube back in was a good idea. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 08:31:40 [Permalink]
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| CNN IS A SOCIALIST WHORE STATION! [composes self] I mean they have left leaning veiwership/readership and thus left leaning polls. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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JLP
New Member
1 Post |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 09:35:52 [Permalink]
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Ignorance is bliss.....except when you're Terry Schiavo.
The Schindlers need to stop acting as Terry's surge protector. This is not a person, this is not a life, this is not human, therefore the moralistic "laws" of morality and humanity do not, and cannot stand.
I once had a pet. I loved my pet. My pet fell ill. My pet suffered. My pet was euthanised. Euthanised, NOT murdered. Now that's humanity. That's love. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 10:45:36 [Permalink]
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| Is Kavorkian still alive and painting heads on plates? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 11:02:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
CNN IS A SOCIALIST WHORE STATION! [composes self] I mean they have left leaning veiwership/readership and thus left leaning polls.
The numbers are echoed by ABC pollsters who note that 70% object to Congress getting involved.
CBS notes 75% of those polled said that government had no role in these decisions.
http://pollingreport.com/
http://pollingreport.com/news.htm
82% said that Congress should have stayed out of the Terri Schiavo case.
Found another one which cannot be called to have a liberal bias.
FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. March 1-2, 2005. N=900 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 3.
"If a patient has been in what doctors call a 'persistent vegetative' or a coma-like state with no higher brain activity for a significant amount of time, who do you think should make the decision whether the patient should be kept alive or not: the person's parents or other family members, the person's spouse, or the government?"
38% parents or other family
45% person's spouse
2% government
3% doctor
12% Not sure. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 03/25/2005 11:16:31 |
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