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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
 Posted - 02/28/2005 : 01:57:49
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Respect all or only those who deserve it?
So far we have:
Dude:
quote:
Ricky, you have it wrong man.
We should, on first meeting, extend courtesy to anyone and everyone, without question.
After that, respect has to be earned by all parties (ourselves included).
Call me an asshole, but this guy hasn't earned a shred of respect. He prettymuch deserves nothing in that regard.
Ricky:
quote:
Throughout my life, I have learned to give respect to everyone, at least verbally. If you think this is wrong, by all means, disagree, but that is far from me "having it wrong." It is simply a difference in attitudes towards others, neither one of us is wrong.
Dude:
quote:
I refuse to be dishonest to people. Paying lipservice with verbal respect that you don't really have for somebody is, imo, a dishonest thing.
I much prefer people to be straight up with me as well.
Beyond the generalized respect and courtesy on first meeting, each party has to earn the respect of the other.
This doesn't mean that we have to be rude to people we don't respect, just that pretending to be courteous and respectfull is (in keeping with the subject of this thread) a kind of fraud.
I am nice to as many people I can be. Certainly there are limits, but they are at the very extreme of being disrespectful.
In the subject of this (the previous) thread, we were talking about respecting latinijral's post. I believe that we should give a certain amount of respect to every idea we hear.
For example, Hovind walks up to you one day and says, "I have evidence never before seen of how man lived with dinosaurs." My response would be, "Ok, where is it?" What would yours? I get the feeling it would be, "Bullshit!" followed by walking away, but this is just a guess.
latinijral's post was, after all, a question. Now of course it made it fairly obvious that he is a fan of Uri's, but it was still a question. Of course latinijral has a bad history with us and skepticism, but it is still a question.
All questions should be allowed to be asked and answered appropriately.
What I really want you to answer out of anything I have said here is this:
How do you think responding negatively to every non-skeptic that comes here promotes skepticism?
quote:
The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.
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Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
Edited by - Ricky on 02/28/2005 02:00:47
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2005 : 03:38:07 [Permalink]
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I pretty much agree, although I too, can go 'off the deep end' now and again.
Mostly, I try and handle the obnoxious ones by simply grinding them down with information, courtesy, and endurance. It works pretty well, I've found, and not losing your temper and becoming abusive can often drive them up the wall.
There is an excellent reason to do it this way. We are not the only ones reading these threads. In some cases, I am more interested in reaching the lurkers, than in the bonehead person I'm addressing.
I say extend courtesy to all, and the worse they might be, the more courteous we should become (if possible. Sometimes it's hard...).
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 02/28/2005 03:40:22 |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2005 : 03:51:49 [Permalink]
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Courtesy to all but the most obnoxious trolls (if you can't, its better to ignore them).
Respect is for those that have earned it, only! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2005 : 04:11:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
Courtesy to all but the most obnoxious trolls (if you can't, its better to ignore them).
Respect is for those that have earned it, only!
Oh, say not so. Trolls are fun! And they are the ones that you can drive absolutly insane(r) with patience, courtesy, and soft but firm words.
Insults and abuse, you see, is what they are looking for. Don't give it to them, then watch them descend into steaming pits of their own, rancid bile. Sometimes, they get downright incoherent. It is most gratifying, especally if you can keep 'em 'on the hook' for a while.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2005 : 09:54:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Respect all or only those who deserve it?
So far we have:
Dude:
quote:
Ricky, you have it wrong man.
We should, on first meeting, extend courtesy to anyone and everyone, without question.
After that, respect has to be earned by all parties (ourselves included).
Call me an asshole, but this guy hasn't earned a shred of respect. He prettymuch deserves nothing in that regard.
Ricky:
quote:
Throughout my life, I have learned to give respect to everyone, at least verbally. If you think this is wrong, by all means, disagree, but that is far from me "having it wrong." It is simply a difference in attitudes towards others, neither one of us is wrong.
Dude:
quote:
I refuse to be dishonest to people. Paying lipservice with verbal respect that you don't really have for somebody is, imo, a dishonest thing.
I much prefer people to be straight up with me as well.
Beyond the generalized respect and courtesy on first meeting, each party has to earn the respect of the other.
This doesn't mean that we have to be rude to people we don't respect, just that pretending to be courteous and respectfull is (in keeping with the subject of this thread) a kind of fraud.
I am nice to as many people I can be. Certainly there are limits, but they are at the very extreme of being disrespectful.
In the subject of this (the previous) thread, we were talking about respecting latinijral's post. I believe that we should give a certain amount of respect to every idea we hear.
For example, Hovind walks up to you one day and says, "I have evidence never before seen of how man lived with dinosaurs." My response would be, "Ok, where is it?" What would yours? I get the feeling it would be, "Bullshit!" followed by walking away, but this is just a guess.
latinijral's post was, after all, a question. Now of course it made it fairly obvious that he is a fan of Uri's, but it was still a question. Of course latinijral has a bad history with us and skepticism, but it is still a question.
All questions should be allowed to be asked and answered appropriately.
What I really want you to answer out of anything I have said here is this:
How do you think responding negatively to every non-skeptic that comes here promotes skepticism?
quote:
The mission of the Skeptic Friends Network is to promote skepticism, critical thinking, science and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact, and we invite active participation by our members to create a skeptical community with a wide variety of viewpoints and expertise.
Ricky,
I give every person respect until they do something to lose it. latinijral has done things here to lose my respect.
If Hovind came up and said "I have evidence to prove me right", I'd say, "let's see it but don't give me any of that Bible passage crap you usually spew."
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2005 : 14:40:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Respect all or only those who deserve it?
<snip>
latinijral's post was, after all, a question. Now of course it made it fairly obvious that he is a fan of Uri's, but it was still a question. Of course latinijral has a bad history with us and skepticism, but it is still a question.
To me it wasn't being a fan of Uri's that was obvious to me.
I smelled a trap being laid for twisting us into saying Uri's a fraud and them lump him together with Randi.
If latinjral is truly an Uri-fan then what the fuck is he bitching about Randi for, but for dragging Randi in the mud?
I tend to think of respect in a gradual scale, it's not either/or.
When I meet people for the first time, I try to show respect, at least some. Then according to what they do/say/show/know/etc. my respect will increase or decrease.
In this case, latinjral's words and actions has very quickly depleted any respect I might have had in the beginning.
In Swedish there is a word that loosely translates into "currency of trust", as if one had a bank-account and the measured currency was the level of trust and confidence one puts in a person. Positive expectations if you will.
I'd like to think of Respect in the same way. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/28/2005 : 14:51:17 [Permalink]
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One does not have to have respect for another to be curtious.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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sumnihil
New Member
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 18:57:57 [Permalink]
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i agree with filthy-killing them with kindness, especially when they are trolling, is (often) more effective than even the most well placed verbal barb. and you don't have to respect anything about a person to show courtesy. in my opinion, showing courtesy to someone else, especially someone you think very little of, shows respect for ones self. insulting them means that not only have they gotten under your skin, they now know they have gotten under your skin. and i'll be damned if i'm going to let a small minded douchemonkey get that far underneath my epiderm.
btw, dr mab--what is the word that means 'currency of trust'? since english doesn't have an equivalent that hasn't become clichèd, i'd love to have another to use when panning g.w. 'proof of a human-primate-evolutionary-link' bush. |
all great truths began as blasphemies.
--g.b. shaw
yes, i am aware that i do not use capital letters. it is discrimination, and discrimination is wrong. period. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 20:07:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by sumnihil
btw, dr mab--what is the word that means 'currency of trust'? since english doesn't have an equivalent that hasn't become clichèd, i'd love to have another to use when panning g.w. 'proof of a human-primate-evolutionary-link' bush.
The Swedish word is "förtroendekapital", and it's a compound-word of the words "förtroende" (confidence and trust or in some cases: reliability) and "kapital" (currency).
Unfortunatly, it's not well suited for use in the English language. But then, I'd never had guessed that "ombudsman" would be used either. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2005 : 18:27:07 [Permalink]
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I think that people should first begin by respecting themselves. Respecting others is a piece of cake after that. People who do not respect themselves are completely unable to be considerate of others.
As the saying goes, "Live and let live."
ljbrs |
"Innumerable suns exist; innumerable earths revolve about these suns in a manner similar to the way the seven planets revolve around our sun. Living beings inhabit these worlds."
Giordano Bruno
(Burned at the stake by the Roman Catholic Church Inquisition in 1600) |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/04/2005 : 12:54:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
Ricky,
I give every person respect until they do something to lose it. latinijral has done things here to lose my respect.
If Hovind came up and said "I have evidence to prove me right", I'd say, "let's see it but don't give me any of that Bible passage crap you usually spew."
Allowing him to show you the evidence is exactly the kind of respect I am talking about.
quote:
As the saying goes, "Live and let live."
Live and Let Die - Paul McCartney
We have given him multiple opportunities to present his evidence. We have analyzed the character assassination that he passes off as evidence. I still don't have any respect for his mean spirited and baseless attack on Randi, MoeFaux, and Chris Bidlack. It is my opinion that latinijral has no honor and his evidence is not only innuendo but baseless innuendo. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2005 : 22:01:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
How do you think responding negatively to every non-skeptic that comes here promotes skepticism?
You are making a factually incorrect statement here. I do not respond negatively to every non-skeptic here. You are also creating a nice little straw-man to argue against. I'm sure you can beat that strawman down with ease, shred him up and make him into a straw pillow that you can rest easily upon in your victory.
Personally, as I have stated before, I extend common courtesy to everyone on first meeting. Only after they have demonstrated that they are incapable of returing that courtesy, or do something totally ridiculous (like claim that Hawking's use of "evaporate" implies that black holes are liquid) and remain resistant to correction of factual errors, do I whip out the old sarcasm.
Respect must be earned. It can also be lost. I find it uncomfortably dishonest to pretend courtesy to people whom I have little or no respect for.
Also, as I have said before, not respecting somebody doesn't mean that you can't be civil towards them. But often sarcasm is the best tool to communicate a point, especially when the point is that the individual in question is doing/saying something blatantly stupid.
With people like latinijral and lawrules and Storm, they have proven beyond dispute that they are totally resistant to facts and evidence. And if evidence is not enough, then what is left besides sarcasm? Should we just let them post endless ammounts of nonsense and repeat the same factual corrections to them that they ignored the first 10 times?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2005 : 17:50:03 [Permalink]
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I of course did not mean "all" literally, but most, that was my mistake. I also honestly do not see a straw man anywhere.
But ignore that for now, I withdraw it. It was horribly said and did not get any point across, so I take it back.
The easiest way I know how to show this is with an example. And of course, the best example is the one that started this thread:
quote:
Originally posted by latinijral
Dear Skeptic Friends:
Please be careful while you are responding these questions.
I know some of you have potential.
Do you consider Geller's atributed paranormal acts a fraud?
Why?
Remember....think before you respond.
The first reply to it is:
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Troll sighting.
Hijacking your thread now.
NEW QUESTION!
Do you consider latinijral to be a fraud?
If so, why?
Let me start! Yes. Total fraud.
He has repeatedly made accuasations without any evidence to support them. He calls himself the "father of the 'new skepticism' " and refuses to answer when asked what qualifies him to have such a title. He is obsessed with Randi because the JREF refused to award the prize to his delusional friend who submitted a video of the WTC attack (with some blurry spot) as evidence of the paranormal. He has trolled this board repeatedly in multiple threads in his obsessive quest to slander the JREF and people associated with it.
I could go on...
I think that if someone asks a question, no matter what we think they think, it deserves to be answered. If someone asks for our opinion on someone, either give your opinion on him/her or don't reply.
So what if it appears that latinijral has lost his marbles? Just because someone does not agree with our methods of pursuing truth means that they aren't allowed to ask questions?
Isn't that what skepticism is all about? Asking questions? What does it matter if it is a skeptic asking them or a woo-woo? What is the damn difference?
Asking questions is a good thing. A woo-woo asking questions is an even better thing. If we won't answer their questions, why the hell should they answer ours? Is that not the definition of a hypocrite?
This is what I meant by "negative response." |
Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
- Isaac Asimov |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2005 : 18:48:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
The easiest way I know how to show this is with an example. And of course, the best example is the one that started this thread:
You know, by the time latinijral started that thread, we'd already been through nine pages of this, which included numerous disrespectful statements about Randi and Moefaux, and also this:Poor Lisa , you are still having wet dreams with Carlos, your favorite topic. Seven pages of this, which included:Explain why "skeptics" believe in democracy and polls.
Jerks ., poor jerks. And eight pages of this, which started with:Why the "skeptics always act as the believers forums?
Just because their idols are made of shit? If one follows a "do unto others" sort of rule, it's been crystal clear that latinijral desires to be treated very badly.
Besides which, it was clear to me that latinijral's opening question of the Geller thread was highly loaded, and his responses in that thread demonstrate my initial assessment: he never cared about the answers he got, he started the thread in order to continue his diatribes against "pseudoskeptics."
Ricky, you asked:quote:
Just because someone does not agree with our methods of pursuing truth means that they aren't allowed to ask questions?
Now there is a strawman. Nobody - and I mean nobody - has ever stopped latinijral from asking a question here. He is obviously allowed to ask questions as he sees fit (within reason), and Dude is allowed to respond as he sees fit (again, within reason). Dude's response was to call latinijral out on several points (some still unanswered) unrelated to the OP.quote:
Asking questions is a good thing. A woo-woo asking questions is an even better thing. If we won't answer their questions, why the hell should they answer ours? Is that not the definition of a hypocrite?
The real intent of the question matters, Ricky. Is it hypocritical to refuse to answer the question "have you stopped beating your wife?" The reasonable non-wife-beater would see the question for the trap it is. The answer, in such cases, doesn't matter.
"Is Geller a fraud?" Answer 'no', and latinijral has a field-day with you for not being a skeptic. Answer 'yes', and he starts playing semantic and philosophical games about "mind power" being used to move the muscles which bend the spoon, and then accuses you of not being a skeptic.
While I wish Dude has been funnier in his hijack, I won't fault him one bit for avoiding the pitfall of actually answering latinijral's game-playing, disrepectful OP. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2005 : 20:15:22 [Permalink]
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It is one of the great beauties of courtesy and consideration, that sarcasm can be fired from it like a cannon shot.
I find latinijral more tedious than anything else. Thus far, he has presented nothing of interest. So, I am responding to my mean streak by hounding him for an answer to The Question that he, himself has claimed to be the father of (and might get slapped with a paternity suit over the little bastard, most any day). As courtiously, as possible, I hope.
But I really must say that I have rarely seen so many straw men and rancid, red herrings since my last conversation with Sarfati. 
The single reference other than forum bullshit he has come up with is a joke. A moment's research on it's owner demonstrates that he is on at least the fringe of woo-woo. A better than fair photographer, though.
In short, to me, latinjral has become an amusment, little more. I find it a pity that he has so little substance.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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