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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
 Posted - 03/08/2005 : 02:50:07 [Permalink]
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George, looks like you started to address my post then????
Hope none of those ad hominems were in my posts. I'm trying to point out what I have read in the Bible but realize I'm at times saying some very bad things about something you obviously sincerely believe in. I do hope you don't take it personally. I do debate believers in the Christian religion very vigorously because, as I have said several times, I read, [pr:reed], the Bible passages and don't find what Christians claim is written there.
To Christians, it may feel like an attack. But in reality, what is felt is the threat one cannot find the supporting passages, consistency, and sense in what is supposed to be a supporting document, the Bible. Christians pass their beliefs on from person to person. Those beliefs do not come from the Bible. If one were to read the Bible as a religious text from a god, and not have any previous contact with someone telling them what they should believe after reading it, do you think they would attain the same understanding as you? I don't think they would.
You can argue that having 'faith' is somehow the important thing so all you encounter, including an inconsistent Bible is somehow a 'test' of faith. That just makes no sense at all to me. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2005 : 05:13:52 [Permalink]
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George,
You are forgetting one minor detail. You can't prove that god exists (well, if you think you can, I'm sure most here would be interested in your proof). Without evidence, all this (your religious views) is just your personal opinion of how you think you should lead your life.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2005 : 17:43:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by George:
Consider Abraham, for example. He was, reportedly, saved by faith.
Wasn't Abraham the guy that was ready to kill his own son? Isn't that a "shalt not"? What game was god playing there, and what was the point? Seems like a particularly cruel trick. Kill your kid or piss off the almighty. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2005 : 17:51:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
quote:
Originally posted by George:
Consider Abraham, for example. He was, reportedly, saved by faith.
Wasn't Abraham the guy that was ready to kill his own son? Isn't that a "shalt not"? What game was god playing there, and what was the point? Seems like a particularly cruel trick. Kill your kid or piss off the almighty.
Or rather, kill your kid and piss the almighty, or don't kill your kid and piss the almighty anyway. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2005 : 18:35:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
Hope none of those ad hominems were in my posts. I'm trying to point out what I have read in the Bible but realize I'm at times saying some very bad things about something you obviously sincerely believe in. I do hope you don't take it personally.
No problem. I never know just what struggles another person has suffered. Some are very serious. I, frankly, am not theologian enough to have my ego bruised. I do regard blatant attacks of character as highly immature. I have not felt that here... yet. 
quote:
I do debate believers in the Christian religion very vigorously because, as I have said several times, I read, [pr:reed], the Bible passages and don't find what Christians claim is written there.
My personal feeling is that God does not expect us to have "blind faith" in accepting Him. If the Bible is "His book", and he supports it in some way, then, it must be plausible for those who really put forth the effort. However, it will not be proveable nor even remotely scientific (with some exceptions). Therefore, inevitably, some faith should be allowable based on a plausible scenario(s) for a given section of scripture, IMO.
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Christians pass their beliefs on from person to person. Those beliefs do not come from the Bible. If one were to read the Bible as a religious text from a god, and not have any previous contact with someone telling them what they should believe after reading it, do you think they would attain the same understanding as you? I don't think they would.
Interesting question. I think you are right in the sense of a single person reading it from scratch. However, given enough time, research and people, do you not think we would end up close to where we are today in denominations, views on the many topics, etc.?
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You can argue that having 'faith' is somehow the important thing so all you encounter, including an inconsistent Bible is somehow a 'test' of faith. That just makes no sense at all to me.
I agree. As stated above, I don't think blind faith is necessary. I doubt, however, we know all that can be known regarding scriptures. There are too many metaphors and prophecies to have 100% clarity. I do believe that this is by design, yet, not necessarily a test of faith.
My hope is that plausibility will be found for the important passages. I believe this exists for the vast majority of the scriptures. I don't think, however, that the simplist explanation is necessarily the best (e.g. 6 - 24 hr. creation days). |
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George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2005 : 18:39:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
George,
You are forgetting one minor detail. You can't prove that god exists (well, if you think you can, I'm sure most here would be interested in your proof). Without evidence, all this (your religious views) is just your personal opinion of how you think you should lead your life.
I agree with you, Dude. Proof usually means scientific proof. Something that can be tested and measured. Proving, or disproving, God is beyond mankind, IMO. Proof would negate faith, however. That is also a personal opinion of mine, but found in scripture. |
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George
New Member
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2005 : 18:52:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by R.Wreck
quote:
Originally posted by George:
Consider Abraham, for example. He was, reportedly, saved by faith.
Wasn't Abraham the guy that was ready to kill his own son? Isn't that a "shalt not"? What game was god playing there, and what was the point? Seems like a particularly cruel trick. Kill your kid or piss off the almighty.
Very odd indeed. Look how old Abraham and Sarah were at the time Issac was born. It was their only son, too (at least by his real wife). The plan was for a blood sacrifice. Yet, Abraham was promised that from his seed, many thousands would come. Many belive Abraham trusted God to make His promise good (through Issac) regardless of any event. Gen. 22:8 says Abraham told Issac that "God will provide a lamb" for the sacrifice.
Many Chrisitans feel the old testament is tremendous symbolism for the new testament. This event is one of the best examples since a father was willing to give up his only son as a sacrifice. Yet a lamb was provided in Abrahams case. All lamb sacrifices were symbolic for the real "lamb" (the Lamb of God - Jesus) sacrifice. This may have been what God found pleasing in these sacrificies, which, BTW, were acts to remove sins in those days.
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 03/10/2005 : 01:30:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Georgequote:
Originally posted by Dude
George,
You are forgetting one minor detail. You can't prove that god exists (well, if you think you can, I'm sure most here would be interested in your proof). Without evidence, all this (your religious views) is just your personal opinion of how you think you should lead your life.
I agree with you, Dude. Proof usually means scientific proof. Something that can be tested and measured. Proving, or disproving, God is beyond mankind, IMO. Proof would negate faith, however. That is also a personal opinion of mine, but found in scripture.
I'll settle for evidence. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2005 : 16:58:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by R.Wreck
quote:
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Originally posted by George:
Consider Abraham, for example. He was, reportedly, saved by faith.
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Wasn't Abraham the guy that was ready to kill his own son? Isn't that a "shalt not"? What game was god playing there, and what was the point? Seems like a particularly cruel trick. Kill your kid or piss off the almighty.
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Very odd indeed. Look how old Abraham and Sarah were at the time Issac was born. It was their only son, too (at least by his real wife).
Yes, old Abe was planting his seed all over the place:
Gen 16:15 "And Hagar bare Abraham a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael."
Gen 21:2,3 "For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac."
Gen 25:1,2 "Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah. And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah."
So he had sons to spare I guess.
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The plan was for a blood sacrifice. Yet, Abraham was promised that from his seed, many thousands would come.
But the promise came after the angel told him not to kill his son. So he was willing to do it for no other reason than his belief that god told him to.
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Many belive Abraham trusted God to make His promise good (through Issac) regardless of any event. Gen. 22:8 says Abraham told Issac that "God will provide a lamb" for the sacrifice.
I think he was just shining Isaac on to keep him from getting suspicious.
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Many Chrisitans feel the old testament is tremendous symbolism for the new testament. This event is one of the best examples since a father was willing to give up his only son as a sacrifice. Yet a lamb was provided in Abrahams case.
Examples of what? I have to go back to my original question which you did not answer. What kind of cruel game was god playing?
What god allegedly did here was to get Abe to come thisclose to offing his own kid! That's conspiracy to commit murder, and child abuse in one act. How is this the act of a supreme being of infinite love?
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All lamb sacrifices were symbolic for the real "lamb" (the Lamb of God - Jesus) sacrifice. This may have been what God found pleasing in these sacrificies, which, BTW, were acts to remove sins in those days.
So sacrificing a lamb would still work for removing sin, right? BTK needs to get a job on the prison farm where he can kill a sheep (shouldn't be too hard with his experience) and validate his pass to eternal life. Or has that offer expired?
And why would god find the killing of one of his creatures for any means to be pleasing? Sounds to me more like he's just got a mean streak. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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