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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 03/16/2005 : 04:13:49
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Anyone seen any skeptical review of this "miracle" yet?
http://www.holyfire.org/eng/velich.htm
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2005 : 07:39:04 [Permalink]
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You might find this article from SkepticReport by Claus Larsen entitled An evening with a Miracle Man of interest, Gorgo. Here is a quote from the article that pertains to The Holy Fire:
quote:
The Holy Fire in Jerusalem
Claim: Each year, on Holy Saturday (Orthodox Easter Saturday), people gather in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, to watch candles being lit by fire from Heaven. The Patriarch enters the tomb with two unlit candles and reappears later with the candles now burning. The fire is used to light the candles held by the people attending the ceremony. Right before the Patriarch enters the tomb, Israeli authorities check the tomb for any lights or methods of lighting a fire. The tomb is then sealed until the arrival of the patriarch. He is stripped of his royal liturgical vestments, leaving only a white alba. He then enters the tomb, alone, and reappears with the candles lit.
Problems:
- Israeli authorities (Hvidt calls them "civil servants" in the book) may be good at their day-time jobs, but they are hardly authorities when it comes to detecting trickery and chicanery.
- Nobody seems to have realized that the Patriarch should be body-searched. He could easily carry a concealed match, lighter orsomething else which can be used to light the candles.
- The candles themselves could be chemically prepared in advance to light up by themselves. In favor of this speaks the fact that the Patriarch sometimes has to stay in the tomb for a prolonged period of time.
- No cameras are allowed inside the tomb while the candles are being lighted. The actual lighting of the candles has never been observed by anyone else but the patriarch. We only have the testimony of the patriarch.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2005 : 08:02:08 [Permalink]
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Even a klutz like myself could pull that one off. A bit of white phospherous the size of a pinhead in a capsule carried in the mouth would do the job nicely. Open and drain the capsule, light the candle, close the capsule and swallow it. The phospherous, which will ignite with exposure to air, will quickly burn away leaving no evidence.
Or, a couple of wax-coated kitchen matches carried where the sun don't shine, and replaced after the candles are lit...
Or, a hidden compartment in the room know only to the Patriarch and his inner circle, containing the necessary materials....
And so forth. Too easy.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2005 : 14:33:45 [Permalink]
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| Didn't have time to read it closely but I plan to later. Very interesting link. The picture of the people with their hands in the flame, what idiots. Apparently they don't have a clue flames don't burn your hand in any situation unless you hold it there. I wonder if they have anyone hold their hand over the heat source in the flame for very long? |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2005 : 04:53:45 [Permalink]
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Without resorting to magic or spiritus in some form, no religion could exist. So-called miracles are required to keep the faithful amazed and thus, well, faithful, and to attract new believers. The major churches are expert at producing such, particularly the Catholics of various orders and sects. They seem have more relics, saints, and ceremony than most any other, and all of these produce miracles. And if those miracles are helped along by artificial means, it's all to the greater glory of God. And the believers suck it up like it was ambrosia.
Which explains why there is such a to-do over silliness like Mary on the cheddar and the Jesus Bush-choker.
As an atheist, I love a good miracle. It's fun to figure it out and sometimes find the sleight-of-hand (or the unsupported statements and outright lies) behind it. And it's interesting to note that no matter how sternly the miracle is uncovered for a fraud, not a single believer will harbour a doubt. To doubt would negate the belief, show a lack of faith, and sent the wretched apostate straight to hell -- another miracle!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 03/17/2005 05:07:43 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2005 : 06:39:51 [Permalink]
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I'm just fascinated by our ability to fool ourselves in so many ways. This was brought to my attention in another forum. The creator of the thread seems to have vanished, as though carried away by cherubim and seraphim:
Quote:
Gorgo
Have you seen it?
Inquisitor:
No, not personally. I have known many people who have though. They are deeply religious and I have no grounds to question their credibility.
http://www.volconvo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4302 |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2005 : 07:31:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I'm just fascinated by our ability to fool ourselves in so many ways. This was brought to my attention in another forum. The creator of the thread seems to have vanished, as though carried away by cherubim and seraphim:
Quote:
Gorgo
Have you seen it?
Inquisitor:
No, not personally. I have known many people who have though. They are deeply religious and I have no grounds to question their credibility.
http://www.volconvo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4302
Riiight! As soon as somebody starts telling you how pious he and/or his friends are, put your wristwatch in your front pocket and your wallet in your sock.
But even skeptics are not immune to self delusion. The difference is that as soon as the flaw in our thought is accurately pointed out, we abandon the delusion in favor of fact. After the mandatory argument, o' course. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2005 : 13:32:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
A bit of white phospherous the size of a pinhead in a capsule carried in the mouth would do the job nicely. Open and drain the capsule, light the candle, close the capsule and swallow it. The phospherous, which will ignite with exposure to air, will quickly burn away leaving no evidence.
I'm going to have to find me some phospherous, 'cause that would make for a damn good magic trick.
If you do, be damned careful with it. It must be kept immersed in water until the instant you're ready to use it.
White phospherous is used in some munitions, and I have seen burns from it in 'Nam. Really nasty!
It is not found naturally, but produced in the lab from phosphates. It's cousin, red phospherous, is what makes matches friction-ignite, so you might say that it is already used in magic. And now you know at least as much about it as I do. 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2005 : 23:41:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
If you do, be damned careful with it. It must be kept immersed in water until the instant you're ready to use it.
White phospherous is used in some munitions, and I have seen burns from it in 'Nam. Really nasty!
It is not found naturally, but produced in the lab from phosphates. It's cousin, red phospherous, is what makes matches friction-ignite, so you might say that it is already used in magic. And now you know at least as much about it as I do.
I second filthy's cautions about playing with phosphorous. While not as, um, direct a lesson as filthy's, that stuff burns through ammo cans like you wouldn't believe. Nasty stuff. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2005 : 01:24:39 [Permalink]
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A handfull of white phos can melt the block of a large engine.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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