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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
 Posted - 03/24/2005 : 13:09:42
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I have noticed that the argument in favor of torture: What if we have someone in custody who knows when/where a bomb will go off and the only way to save the lives of all those poor, potential bombing victims is to beat the information out of this detainee?
I have also noticed that this is not a new idea, and that people have been making this argument long before the bomb in the scenario was nuclear.
Torture is not a new idea, there is a long history of humans using torture to punish, to convert and to maintain power. Yet, in all that time, there has never been an incident that matches the hypothetical for necessary torture: the obtaining of information that prevents a violent act. If it hasn't happened in over 5000 years, how likely is it to happen in the future?
In addition, if a terrorist were in custody during the lead-up to an act that he thinks will fulfill his political goals, would resisting for a finite period of time, til it was too late, be impossible? Even without such a finite usefulness of their information, many American POWS during WWII, The Korean conflict and the Vietnam war managed to resist torture that would go on for indefinite periods of time.
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trish |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 13:58:08 [Permalink]
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| The problem (err, one problem) is that there is no way of knowing before hand if torture is justified, only if the person actually has anti-whatever information would it be worthy, but determining if the info is there to be found is another thing... |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2005 : 16:10:44 [Permalink]
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| Yeah, like with that horrible practice, waterboarding. They call it a professional interrogation technique. Like it's ok, as long as when you torture people you have a snappy uniform and a short haircut. Where have we heard that before? |
trish |
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 00:06:34 [Permalink]
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| Incidentally, does anyone have any data on how reliable information gathered through torture is? I imagine at some point you'll tell whatever they want to hear just to make it stop. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 00:59:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Incidentally, does anyone have any data on how reliable information gathered through torture is? I imagine at some point you'll tell whatever they want to hear just to make it stop.
One of the major practical arguments against using torture is indeed that people will eventually make stuff up, once they have an idea of what it is you are looking for, just to get you to stop torturing them.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 07:52:17 [Permalink]
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What about this? Technology vs. Torture. Here are a couple of quotes from the article by Harvey Rishikof and Michael Schrage:
quote:
The tools for radically transforming tomorrow's interrogations can be found in hospitals worldwide. They're helping to painlessly diagnose Alzheimer's, dyslexia, epilepsy, schizophrenia, insomnia, and brain tumors. The past decade has seen revolutions both in brain-scanning technologies and in drugs that affect the brain's functions. Like personal computers and digital camcorders, these technologies are getting faster, better, and cheaper. And they may have uses in the interrogation room that will render moot debates about the excesses of Abu Ghraib-style treatment of prisoners.
quote:
More important, these new technologies may also prove more effective than traditional interrogation techniques. In addition to the obvious moral and political arguments against torture, it is commonly acknowledged that torture victims sometimes confess to whatever accusations are leveled at them and even fabricate facts to end the pain. New technologies may minimize these problems by monitoring involuntary responses and indicating when such fabrications occur.
Whadda ya think? Under what circumstances would it be acceptable to put someone through these more humane procedures? They're nicer, and apparently more reliable. Does that make it more okay?
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 08:33:40 [Permalink]
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| 'Okay' is a matter of perspective and wont be solved here or ever... [/downer] |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 17:53:27 [Permalink]
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First prove it works with any kind of consistency. I have not seen the evidence. If you believe in your cause enough to fly your plane into a tower or push the on button to the bomb strapped on your chest, are you going to give up your buddies if tortured? Perhaps, but it wouldn't be a very efficient means of getting information.
Then put controls on it so it is only used wisely. Well that rules it out right there. Having been in Central America during the reign of terror our lovely government supported I can say with confidence, torture is not used to extract information. That's the movie version.
Torture is used to intimidate your enemy, pure and simple.
We really need to make it clear to the the Bushs and Ashcrofts of our government that we do not support torture under any circumstances. It is foolish to think it will help you more than hurt you in the long run. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 03/26/2005 17:55:51 |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2005 : 13:55:38 [Permalink]
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Torture in any aspect has some problems with how it is administered. If physical, the person will pretty much say anything to get it to stop. In an attempt to please the torturer, the victim will admit to the most heinous crimes.
Psychological is a little different. If sleep deprivation is used, the effect is to lower the prisoner's inhibition from telling what he or she knows. If they don't know anything, they can't tell anything.
Mostly, what people are talking about torture is physical and some punative psychological. Neither are effective in intelligence gathering as the information is questionable at best.
The question is, is it worth beating wrong information out of someone in the name of security? I ardently believe that if the US continues this kind of tack, the government will become in effect one giant terrorist organization. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2005 : 16:25:36 [Permalink]
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Valliant Dancer,
I wholeheartedly agree with your last paragraph. |
trish |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2005 : 16:43:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
The question is, is it worth beating wrong information out of someone in the name of security? I ardently believe that if the US continues this kind of tack, the government will become in effect one giant terrorist organization.
I'll go a step further and say that we are already there. Wolfowitz, Pearl, et.al. have lead the US into a place where we shouldn't be. They have deliberately distorted truth and reality to get their own way, and they have convinced a large voting segment of the country to vote for their candidates.
SInce 9/11 they have essentially used terror tactics on US citizens. They keep the anxiety level up with their meaningless "terror alerts", supress information, call anyone who opposes them anti-American, etc.... the list is long and grevious.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 03/28/2005 : 18:01:31 [Permalink]
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Dude - I soooo agree about the terror alerts. I remember within a week of 9/11 saying that I bet al Qaeda had [let's say - had climaxed and left itself drained], and there wouldn't be any more big terror attacks on U.S. soil for a long time.
Considering that the Patriot Act was in the works before that horrid day, it seems to have played right into their grubby little hands. |
trish |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 07:57:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
The question is, is it worth beating wrong information out of someone in the name of security? I ardently believe that if the US continues this kind of tack, the government will become in effect one giant terrorist organization.
I'll go a step further and say that we are already there. Wolfowitz, Pearl, et.al. have lead the US into a place where we shouldn't be. They have deliberately distorted truth and reality to get their own way, and they have convinced a large voting segment of the country to vote for their candidates.
SInce 9/11 they have essentially used terror tactics on US citizens. They keep the anxiety level up with their meaningless "terror alerts", supress information, call anyone who opposes them anti-American, etc.... the list is long and grevious.
Anybody but me question the Orange alert thrown up during the DNC based on 2001 information? The result was the news no longer was covering the DNC and it's candidates and instead covered what turned out to be old information. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 08:08:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Anybody but me question the Orange alert thrown up during the DNC based on 2001 information? The result was the news no longer was covering the DNC and it's candidates and instead covered what turned out to be old information.
Yes.
Terror politics.
I question the very existance (as in need for) of the Dept of Homeland Security. They seem to have no real function.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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pfretzschner
Skeptic Friend
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 12:00:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Anybody but me question the Orange alert thrown up during the DNC based on 2001 information? The result was the news no longer was covering the DNC and it's candidates and instead covered what turned out to be old information
What are you saying!!?? They don't do politics at the Department of Homeland Sec...ack...Homelan...wheeze...(cough)... |
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