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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
 Posted - 03/30/2005 : 12:18:07
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quote:
FAMOUS ATHEIST ANTONY FLEW DECIDES THERE MUST BE A GOD
From: Dr. D. James Kennedy, “Atheism Loses A Champion”, IMPACT Newsletter. Coral Ridge Ministries, March, 2005, p.8.
“Have you heard? Atheism is in decline—its intellectual appeal and influence are very much on the wane. So much so that Antony Flew, one of the world's leading philosophical atheists has concluded, at age 81, that there must be a God. This is huge news that has rocked many in the atheist community.
“When I studied Flew some thirty years ago, I recall being highly impressed at his ability to marshall very articulate and cogent arguments for atheism. It was evident that he was a powerful leader for the cause of atheism. His decision has, no doubt, been a great disappointment to many of his erstwhile fellow disbelievers. May they follow in his footsteps.
"Flew's decision to accept the idea of God came about, he told Dr. Gary Habermas, a Liberty University philosophy professor, because he “simply had to go where the evidence leads.” The evidence he found most compelling comes from science—an ironic source since science is often presented, falsely, as at odds with the idea of God.
"Flew told Habermas, in an interview published in Philosophia Christi, the recent scientific evidence of intelligent design had convinced him of an original Designer. “I think the most impressive argument for God's existence are those that are supported by recent scientific discoveries,” he told Habermas. “It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument for design.”
"Flew's “conversion” not to Christianity, but to theism, is consistent with a pattern taking place more broadly in Western culture. Oxford theologian and historian Alistair McGrath, himself a former atheist, chronicles this change in his book, The Twilight of Atheism: The Rise and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World. McGrath, an evangelical whom I spoke with in a Truths That Transform interview that will air March 18, lists the horrific consequences that followed atheism's rise to power in the old Soviet Union as one major reason for atheism's fall from favor. Karl Marx claimed that religion was the opiate of the people, but the opposite is true. Atheism, it turns out, is a drug that numbed, deceived, and destroyed millions who died in the Soviet Gulag prisons in Siberia, in the killing fields of Cambodia, and elsewhere.
"Atheism is also in decline because of an increased interest among young people in spirituality. “I see a very interesting generation gap emerging within atheism,” he said. “Atheists tend to be older people. Younger people tend to want to keep that question about God open.”
"McGrath became an atheist in the 1960's, at a time when “it was obvious that Christianity was on its deathbed.” But as a student at Oxford, he met other Christians and was forced to rethink his belief system. “The more I looked into it, the more I realized that atheism wasn't anything as intellectually resilient or as spiritually attractive as I had thought,” he said.
"And one cannot help but wonder whether Antony Flew, the son of a Methodist minister who decided against God at age 15, might himself move from the halfway house of theism into the embrace of Christ. Asked about that by Habermas, Flew answered, “Well, one thing I'll say in the comparison is that, for goodness sake, Jesus is an enormously attractive charismatic figure, which the Prophet of Islam most emphatically is not.”
That's hilarious. I emailed him back a rebuttal to the nonsense article, but still, what nonsense.
tk
[Moved to the Religio
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
 Posted - 03/30/2005 : 12:58:47 [Permalink]
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I have a question that tk might pass on to Dad if he be's so inclined: What exactly, does Dr. Flew's converting to some sort of theism or other have to do with me, or anyone beyond his own aquaintence?
I have little doubt that some atheists, perhaps, get hit on the head and decide that there might be a god after all; and an equal or even larger number of folks, perhaps, get hit on the head and give up religion as a bad job. That is their personal decision and of little concern of others, unless they become a public nuisance preaching on street corners.
 |
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 13:36:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
Atheism is in decline
Isn't this just facutally wrong? Perhaps a lie?
I wondered about that, too. I'd sure like to know where the author gets his information.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 13:36:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
Atheism is in decline
Isn't this just facutally wrong? Perhaps a lie?
I've been told that according to the NY Times in the U.S. it is in decline, however, I haven't seen the source for that. Either way, the irony of this article is that they never actually show an intellectual reason why atheism would be in decline.
tk |
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 13:38:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I have a question that tk might pass on to Dad if he be's so inclined: What exactly, does Dr. Flew's converting to some sort of theism or other have to do with me, or anyone beyond his own aquaintence?
Well it's an appeal to an authority. My dad would say "it's a big name atheist and he converted, so therefore there must be some God." It's nonsense.
tk |
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 13:59:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
FAMOUS ATHEIST ANTONY FLEW DECIDES THERE MUST BE A GOD
Actually, this whole Antony Flew-conversion thing was the first time i ever heard his name.
As for that article, you gotta love that whole "Atheism kills"-thing.
quote:
Atheism, it turns out, is a drug that numbed, deceived, and destroyed millions who died in the Soviet Gulag prisons in Siberia, in the killing fields of Cambodia, and elsewhere.
Really, communism isn't the same as atheism no matter how you twist it. |
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 14:47:48 [Permalink]
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Exactly Plyss, that would be a Genetic fallacy. If 5 atheists did evil things in the name of atheism, that still doesn't make atheistic philosophy wrong. This is just another tactic of Christians to show evil things a FEW atheists have done and then say "LOOK IT'S EVIL!" Of course, the same could be done with Christians as well, but it's still a fallacy.
tk |
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Cuneiformist
The Imperfectionist
USA
4955 Posts |
Posted - 03/30/2005 : 14:58:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
"And one cannot help but wonder whether Antony Flew, the son of a Methodist minister who decided against God at age 15, might himself move from the halfway house of theism into the embrace of Christ. Asked about that by Habermas, Flew answered, “Well, one thing I'll say in the comparison is that, for goodness sake, Jesus is an enormously attractive charismatic figure, which the Prophet of Islam most emphatically is not.” (emph. added)
I find the jab at Islam to be particularly unnecessary though, given that this is one of D. James Kennedy's bits, hardly surprising. One wonders what aspect of Jesus he finds appealing? The socialism? the hanging out with whores? And no doubt his knowledge of Muhammad and Islam is just as informed as his understanding of ID.
And, as has been already noted, not only have I never herd of Mr Flew, but I honestly could not care less what he thinks. The tragic fallacy of Christian fundies is that they are certain that because they find some solace in following demagogues-- from Jesus to, indeed, Kennedy-- so, too, must atheists.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2005 : 00:39:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tkster
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
Atheism is in decline
Isn't this just facutally wrong? Perhaps a lie?
I've been told that according to the NY Times in the U.S. it is in decline, however, I haven't seen the source for that. Either way, the irony of this article is that they never actually show an intellectual reason why atheism would be in decline. tk
Such an evaluation requires a lot of analysis as to how the measurement is done. Was it a survey and how were the questions asked? Were the answers allowed to be anonymous? Some studies have shown people say they are more religious than they are as measured by claims of church attendance for example. Was the area surveyed limited such as only asking people in the US as is often done like the rest of the world doesn't exist?
Somehow, I doubt the NY Times looked at a meta analysis of very well done research on the subject.
I can only believe the advance of science will advance atheism in the world as well. But it will be a very long time before the 'masses' catch up on education, economics that facilitate rational thinking, and so on. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2005 : 05:25:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I can only believe the advance of science will advance atheism in the world as well. But it will be a very long time before the 'masses' catch up on education, economics that facilitate rational thinking, and so on.
Without wanting to sound too depressing. Looking at America, but also at new players in current dutch politics (Plyss, have you looked at the 'party program' of Geert Wilders?), I don't think the 'masses' will ever catch up. They will resist education before anything else and drive any country that becomes top in its class back to the middle ages so another country can take over. And so on, and so on. I'd advice you guys in the states to prepare your swords and chain mail, your gonna be the first. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2005 : 05:31:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by tkster
quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
Atheism is in decline
Isn't this just facutally wrong? Perhaps a lie?
I've been told that according to the NY Times in the U.S. it is in decline, however, I haven't seen the source for that. Either way, the irony of this article is that they never actually show an intellectual reason why atheism would be in decline. tk
Such an evaluation requires a lot of analysis as to how the measurement is done. Was it a survey and how were the questions asked? Were the answers allowed to be anonymous? Some studies have shown people say they are more religious than they are as measured by claims of church attendance for example. Was the area surveyed limited such as only asking people in the US as is often done like the rest of the world doesn't exist?
Somehow, I doubt the NY Times looked at a meta analysis of very well done research on the subject.
I can only believe the advance of science will advance atheism in the world as well. But it will be a very long time before the 'masses' catch up on education, economics that facilitate rational thinking, and so on.
You're exactly right. The person had just quoted the NY Times, however, the problem with statistics like that is you don't actually know how it was taken so it's hard to know how accurate it could be.
And the problem with stats like that is so many people are ignorant as what is the difference between agnosticism and atheism, and sometimes they just lump them together.
tk |
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2005 : 07:56:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
(Plyss, have you looked at the 'party program' of Geert Wilders?)
Oh yeah, i loved the part about allowing the police to frisk you without reason.
Other highlights include differential treatment for immigrants (they should be expelled from the country if they commit a crime, even if a local would get a jail sentence) and taking away the right to vote from people who don't carry the dutch nationality.
It's kind of funny, most of the stuff he proposes would directly violate the very constitution he's claiming to protect.
quote:
They will resist education before anything else and drive any country that becomes top in its class back to the middle ages so another country can take over. And so on, and so on. I'd advice you guys in the states to prepare your swords and chain mail, your gonna be the first.
Well, if this guy turns out to be right it might happen sooner then you think ;)
As for myself, i still have faith in a rational America.
-edit because i hit post instead of preview- |
| Edited by - Plyss on 03/31/2005 07:58:13 |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2005 : 08:09:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Plyss
quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
(Plyss, have you looked at the 'party program' of Geert Wilders?)
Oh yeah, i loved the part about allowing the police to frisk you without reason.
Other highlights include differential treatment for immigrants (they should be expelled from the country if they commit a crime, even if a local would get a jail sentence) and taking away the right to vote from people who don't carry the dutch nationality.
It's kind of funny, most of the stuff he proposes would directly violate the very constitution he's claiming to protect.
Another funny thing is his claim that he is trying to protect the 'christian heritage' of the Netherlands, on which all my christian friends replied: "What? Him? Yeah, right." |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2005 : 11:58:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by tomk80
quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I can only believe the advance of science will advance atheism in the world as well. But it will be a very long time before the 'masses' catch up on education, economics that facilitate rational thinking, and so on.
Without wanting to sound too depressing. Looking at America, but also at new players in current dutch politics (Plyss, have you looked at the 'party program' of Geert Wilders?), I don't think the 'masses' will ever catch up. They will resist education before anything else and drive any country that becomes top in its class back to the middle ages so another country can take over. And so on, and so on. I'd advice you guys in the states to prepare your swords and chain mail, your gonna be the first.
Well how about 2 steps forward 1 step back? I think we are in the one step back but scientific progress is not stopping, only the current political progress. |
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