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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 03/31/2005 : 13:32:12
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http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/1614
'A man who says he became ill as a result of practicing the wildly popular Atkins weight-loss program is suing. But with Atkins claiming First Amendment protections, much more than the diet's credibility rides on the case.'
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
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Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2005 : 13:59:44 [Permalink]
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I'm a fan of the Adkins program myself. Now that I'm looking down the barrel at forty, I have to keep a close eye on the scale. Otherwise, there's the ever present danger one day I won't be able to see the scale. I come from a long line of carnivores. We don't care if you never give us bread or vegetables. Where's the beef? is on our family crest.
I've lost a few pounds and maintained on the Adkins program. I know several people who have experienced significant weight loss on it. Though most of them have gained the weight back, I don't know anyone who has suffered any ill effects.
Don't ever buy the packaged stuff, though. It's expensive, and (IMHO) it tastes like sh*t! 
This quote from your link certainly got my attention:
quote:
"One does not lose their first amendment protection just because you are trying to make a profit," Martin Reeder, an attorney for Atkins Nutritionals, told The NewStandard.
Wonder if Mr. Reeder learned about justifiable reliance in law school.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2005 : 14:58:07 [Permalink]
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It's like anything else. If it becomes popular, and alot of people do it, somebody is going to be hurt doing it.
If you use a product, and use it in the manner specified, and the product is in no way defective, and you STILL come to some harm... well, as far as I'm concerned that's just life. Suck it up and accept the responsibility for yourself.
It reminds me of the morbidly obesce diabetic who suffers a couple of heart attacks.... then decides to sue a bunch of fast food resturants for harming him because he ate their food 3 or 4 times a day.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2005 : 15:27:15 [Permalink]
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http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/lcd.html
"Many promoters of dietary schemes would have us believe that a special substance or combination of foods will automatically result in weight reduction. That's simply not true. To lose weight, you must eat less, or exercise more, or do both." |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2005 : 15:29:51 [Permalink]
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I don't have the answer for this one, but if someone knowingly sells something dangerous to someone and that buyer is injured, why doesn't the seller have some responsibility? True, if the buyer buys potatoes and stuffs them in his tailpipe, that's something different than selling someone heroin who injects heroin into their veins, isn't it?
quote:
....resturants for harming him because he ate their food 3 or 4 times a day.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2005 : 15:41:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I don't have the answer for this one, but if someone knowingly sells something dangerous to someone and that buyer is injured, why doesn't the seller have some responsibility? True, if the buyer buys potatoes and stuffs them in his tailpipe, that's something different than selling someone heroin who injects heroin into their veins, isn't it?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">....resturants for harming him because he ate their food 3 or 4 times a day.
[/quote]
That depends.
No one forced the obese diabetic person to eat their food 3 or 4 times a day. No one forced the alcoholic to drink a whole bottle of [your favorite alcoholic beverage here], or perhaps even more than one.
IMHO it's different, selling something you know is harmful to someone who doesn't know it is harmful, selling something that isn't harmful but may be if you abuse it, and selling something harmful to someone who actually knows it's harmful. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2005 : 16:41:32 [Permalink]
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It all goes back to critical thinking. If something sounds highly fantastic, it probably is. And I have only small sympathy for anyone who pigs out at the grease pits day in and day out, then whines about poor health. I'd hope for his recovery, but, as anyone who checks it out knows, that sort of diet is all but toxic. When he realized he was gaining a lot of weight, why didn't he quit? Reason: the guy needs councling just like any other junkie.
I am waiting for the next incarnation of the Grapefruit Diet. Seems that, like cicadas, it runs on a sort of 17 year cycle. It's about due.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2005 : 17:26:24 [Permalink]
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The Atkins diet started on a good idea and took it to the extream. People eat to many carbs and it is not healthy. (True) So we should cut carbs from the diet and let peole eat as much proten and fat as they want. (False)
I myself have gone on a diet and excerice program myself, where I do watch my carbs, proten, and try and cut out the fat. I can't say I have stuck to the program 100%, nor have I lost lots of weight, but my weist size as gone down and inch, and I am healther then before.
Atkins may work for some people, but it does look like people should investigate it closer before they try it. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/31/2005 : 21:44:15 [Permalink]
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The basic science behind the atkins diet, as far as I'm aware, is correct. The implemenation of the diet is where problems are encountered.
IF your diet consists only of protien/fat, then you body does (for a fact) utilize stored/consumed fats to create ketones. Ketones can take the place of sugar for metabolic needs. 1g of fat = 9 dietary calories, the same gram of fat turned into ketone yields 4-5 dietary calories.
The problem comes in when people think that they can eat an endless ammount of protien/fat safely. Also, you will never lose weight unless your total caloric intake is less than your caloric use.
When your body is in a ketotic state, the usage of energy from fat is less efficient. Combined with a controlled caloric intake, you can use this bit of metabolic trickery to lose significant ammounts of weight in a fairly short time. You'll gain every ounce back even faster if you revert to your old eating habbits though.
Now, eating a diet that consists only of fat and protien carries other long-term health risks that are well known also.
Honestly, the best way to reduce your body fat/weight is to eat a reasonable deit, balanced between complex carbs, quality protiens, and minimal fat... combined with moderate excercise. The problem is that this isn;t a quick fix, and that's what most are looking for.
I wouldn;t reccomend the Atkins diet to anyone really.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2005 : 04:57:45 [Permalink]
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Knowledge is different things at different times. When I smoked, I knew that smoking wasn't good for me, but I was too young and stupid to know that that meant me and I didn't know that meant now and I didn't know what to do about it.
Some people don't know how to handle their urges. I'm 51, and thanks to rational.org, I'm just starting to understand how to deal with overeating. Now, I'm not blaming anyone else, because it can also be said that the people who sell things like McDonald's really don't know how to handle their behavior either. (I never made McDonald's a regular part of my life) But there is a difference between blame and responsibility and I wonder if I worked in McDonald's and saw someone coming in every day who was obviously unhealthy because of it what would I do? Probably help him shovel it in because it's not my responsibility to run his life.
quote:
IMHO it's different, selling something you know is harmful to someone who doesn't know it is harmful, selling something that isn't harmful but may be if you abuse it, and selling something harmful to someone who actually knows it's harmful.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 04/01/2005 05:08:37 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2005 : 05:00:22 [Permalink]
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Care to elaborate? That part of this article makes no sense to me.
quote:
Wonder if Mr. Reeder learned about justifiable reliance in law school.
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I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2005 : 05:49:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
Honestly, the best way to reduce your body fat/weight is to eat a reasonable deit, balanced between complex carbs, quality protiens, and minimal fat... combined with moderate excercise. The problem is that this isn;t a quick fix, and that's what most are looking for.
Eat less/Exercise more. There's got to be an easier answer.  |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2005 : 06:24:29 [Permalink]
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| Reality was such a stupid idea. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2005 : 06:30:11 [Permalink]
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The Atkins diet is not nutritionally sound. It's low in calcium, fruit, certain vegetables, and whole grains. Starving the body of carbohydrates can lead to loss of lean muscle tissue
(From the American Heart Association: http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=11234)
And suffers the same problem as any diet: it doesn't teach people how to balance their calorie intake with their activitiy level in real-world, daily settings.
Whenever I hear someone "dieting", I immediately think this person doesn't yet embrace being fit, which is really the key.
I say this as someone who's been a size 6 or smaller her whole life. But also as someone who has mixed feelings about the lawsuit. On the one hand, I'd like to see the charlatans at Atkins get their comeuppance. OTOH, a basic awareness of nutrition should pre-empt most people from trying Atkins to begin with.
Maybe it's more about the American obsession with a quick fix, with an easy/fast/no-effort way to do *anything.* |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2005 : 08:49:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Wendy:
This quote from your link certainly got my attention:
quote:
"One does not lose their first amendment protection just because you are trying to make a profit," Martin Reeder, an attorney for Atkins Nutritionals, told The NewStandard.
Wonder if Mr. Reeder learned about justifiable reliance in law school.
quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo:
Care to elaborate? That part of this article makes no sense to me.
Sure. The attorney for Adkins Nutritionals claims that:
quote:
"The ideas and information in a generally circulated self-help book and an associated website are fully protected by the First Amendment even if they cause harm to some readers," wrote Reeder, in an earlier motion to dismiss the case that was denied by the court.
I'm not sure how I feel about that personally, but I think the Court will find a lot of fault with this argument. As for my comment about justifiable reliance - it used to be possible to just look it up in a legal dictionary. Now, apparently one has to read lots of statutes to find it. Here is a pretty good link to a legal defination of fraud. There may be more information here than you care to read, it's wordy. Justifiable reliance is near the end of the page:
quote:
FRAUD – JUSTIFIED RELIANCE - MATERIAL FACT DEFINED
Reliance upon a fraudulent misrepresentation is not justified unless the matter misrepresented is material.
The matter is material if:
A reasonable man would attach importance to its existence or nonexistence in determining his choice of action in the transaction in question; or
The maker of the representation knows or has reason to know that its recipient regards or is likely to regard the matter as important in determining his choice of action, although a reasonable man would not so regard.
Authority:
Restatement, Second, Torts § 538.
Hope this helps. 
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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