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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
 Posted - 09/28/2001 : 18:42:23 [Permalink]
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The first is still a little on the other side (for me  ) but...
Am reading and will take a bit to get through for me. Am also looking into other things as well after following a couple links and leads. Hope to have something soon.
Thank you for the links.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2001 : 19:55:54 [Permalink]
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Since you're such a nice person, I'll let you join the Presidential Prayer Team:
http://www.PresidentialPrayerTeam.org/
quote:
The first is still a little on the other side (for me ) but...
Am reading and will take a bit to get through for me. Am also looking into other things as well after following a couple links and leads. Hope to have something soon.
Thank you for the links.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2001 : 07:37:27 [Permalink]
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I don't understand your insistence upon attempting to egg me into an arguement with you. I (at least I think I am) am attempting to be reasonable here and look at your side. In addition, I really am unfamiliar with most of what's gone on in South America as far as the US policies are concerned. So I need to research information and see what it has happened and form an opinion regarding that.
Your accusatory, authoritarian tone (as I perceive it) is a bit off putting. If this is the tack you continue to take then this discussion of ideas/opinions/whatever is not worth my time. I don't really have the time for petty jabbing at another here.
So, good day.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2001 : 07:41:49 [Permalink]
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What are you talking about? The prayer team thing? I was trying to be nice and offer a joke. If that isn't what you're talking about then you might make yourself a little more clear.
quote:
I don't understand your insistence upon attempting to egg me into an arguement with you. I (at least I think I am) am attempting to be reasonable here and look at your side. In addition, I really am unfamiliar with most of what's gone on in South America as far as the US policies are concerned. So I need to research information and see what it has happened and form an opinion regarding that.
Your accusatory, authoritarian tone (as I perceive it) is a bit off putting. If this is the tack you continue to take then this discussion of ideas/opinions/whatever is not worth my time. I don't really have the time for petty jabbing at another here.
So, good day.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell!
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2001 : 08:15:42 [Permalink]
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Joke? Apologies. Accepted? Sorry, am extremely tired - again I misread.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2001 : 08:35:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
How do you arrive at the idea that sanctions are socialistic? We had sanctions against the Soviet Union for years. What would you have done instead? Just allow all trade between the US-Soviets, bombed them or something else? Sanctions have been very effective in some cases. I can give a good example and that would be South Africa. Sanctions also helped turn the tide in Serbia. I know, I know....we bombed them too but that was just to stop the immediate threat in Kososvo. It was the sanctions that drove Milosovic out. ---@tomic
Socialism ~ (1) Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
I was thinking of the UN as a socialistic organization or perhaps expounding those tenants. As the only “ism” that can be agreed upon by a major majority of the membership. The free enterprise system has promoted the universal ending or lessening of tariffs, this could make sanctions much more powerful, unless you are dealing with someone like Saddam Hussein.
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Forgot the above for a moment and also consider this: trade is capitalistic long before it's socialist. Seems odd to call withholding our trade "socialist." I just don't get it. ---@tomic
I can't help but feel that the restriction of trade is socialistic, in its basic concept. Sanctions remind me of tariffs, which still exist in a lot of countries. If promoting our trade is “capitalistic”, then what is withholding our trade…
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2001 : 11:50:26 [Permalink]
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You defined socialism above. I didn't notice that the absence of captitalism is socialism there. I think sanctions are something different. I think it's economic punishment.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2001 : 14:59:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Ljbrs has opined that ‘no collateral damage' is justified. Do you literally mean NO collateral damage, or do you mean EXCESSIVE (as defined by damage greater than that reasonably expected or justified by the military objectives)?
And contrary to the implications of some, the term ‘collateral damage' is not an attempt by the military to avoid saying ‘dead civilians'. First, the term encompasses more than people and includes damage to buildings and infrastructure. It means damage that occurs concurrently with intended military destruction but which, while unavoidable, is not intended, necessary, nor desirable. The US Army spends a fair amount of time training its leaders (starting with junior officers and nco's) about collateral damage and judging when it will exceed that which is justified by the military objective.
So, ljbrs, if you mean that ‘no collateral damage' is ever justified, then we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion—you holding one which may be noble and well-intended but which is tantamount to saying that ‘no collateral damage is acceptable except when it's us,' in which case you automatically surrender the nation to every threat. If this is not your opinion, I apologize for misinterpreting and mis-stating it.
Garrette:
I consider the term *collateral damage* to be a highly-defective term used by people who wish to escape self-blame for their evil ways. All of the killings by the terrorists were *collateral damage* although, of course, they were the intended victims in this tragedy. They were revenge by terrorists against perceived wrongs thought to have been committed by our country and its leaders. The terrorists took their revenge out on innocent people.
I do not like seeing innocent people killed. It is just a thing with me. Killing of innocent people is what happens during wartime. We have been at war for most of my entire life. Therefore, killing of innocent people happens as a matter of course. Killing of innocent people is *collateral damage*. It is very depressing for me to see it happening all over again.
Deja vu!
The peoples of the world have been at war with each other for as long as there have been human beings. This still does not make killing right. So human beings are killers. Just doing their thing...
I think that, in our eventual retaliation, everything should be carefully planned so that the killing of innocent civilians is reduced to a bare minimum. It would be difficult, satisfactorily, to define the term *bare minimum*.
I am sorry, but I am one of those human beings who feels terribly sorry for all innocent civilians who are caught up in the terror of war. Killing happens and has always happened. That does not mean that I should roll over, forget about it, and pretend that it is nice, nice...
Incidentally, I am a lover of capitalism, and war plays havoc with capitalistic societies.
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Ljbrs: disagree a lot, but a very nice and extremely knowledgeable lady nonetheless, who kindly responded to some e-mails over on the BA board.
Garrette:
I believe that lousy, miserable people live with lousy, miserable people 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365-6 days a year. Lousy, miserable people cannot escape from themselves. Therefore, believing in niceness as being the way to go should be nurtured.
I want the powers that be to take great care in attempting to bring some sanity to this very dangerous situation. I blame the basis for all of the ills of the world on the murderous diff |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2001 : 08:25:53 [Permalink]
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No apology necessary.
quote:
Joke? Apologies. Accepted? Sorry, am extremely tired - again I misread.
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2001 : 09:38:56 [Permalink]
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I really shouldn't be allowed to respond to things when i get off a 12 hour shift.
He's YOUR god, they're YOUR rules, YOU burn in hell! |
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2001 : 14:26:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
“You defined socialism above. I didn't notice that the absence of capitalism is socialism there. ---@tomic”
socialism n 1: a political theory advocating state ownership of industry 2: an economic system based on state ownership of capital [syn: socialist economy] [ant: capitalism]
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
capitalism n : an economic system based on private ownership of capital [syn: capitalist economy] [ant: socialism]
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University
They are antonymous. Why go from “withholding” to “absence”
Q ~If promoting our trade is “capitalistic”, then what is withholding our trade… A ~ economic punishment. ---@tomic
Ok I agree. Perhaps one day it will work against Fidel Castro?
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2001 : 14:34:29 [Permalink]
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I doubt it will work against Castro because Castro is not the man depicted by the US government. While he is definately not elected he has had a lot of support and there are reasons for this. Cuba has had one of the highest literacy rates in the America's(far better than the US) and access to medical care that 1/3 of US citizens only dream about. You can argue that the economy there is terrible but considering the sanctions it's easy to see why that would be.
Sanctions don't always work and in cases when they are imposed for no good reason at all other than stubborness it's easy to see why they wouldn't work everywhere everytime. But they have worked sometimes in some places where otherwise a major military action would have been necessary.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2001 : 15:37:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
While he is definately not elected he has had a lot of support and there are reasons for this. Cuba has had one of the highest literacy rates in the America's(far better than the US) and access to medical care that 1/3 of US citizens only dream about.
Then why the hell are boatloads of Cubans risking their lives to flee to the U.S.?! If it's the result of U.S. santions, why do the expatriates that are here hate Castro?
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And if rain brings winds of change
let it rain on us forever.
I have no doubt from what I've seen
that I have never wanted more.
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