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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 04/07/2005 : 01:58:06
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http://us.cnn.com/2005/US/04/05/deadly.force.ap/index.html quote:
TALLAHASSEE, Florida (AP) -- Gov. Jeb Bush said Tuesday he intends to sign a bill that would allow people who feel threatened -- even on the street or at a baseball game -- to "meet force with force" and defend themselves without fear of prosecution.
"Good, common sense, anti-crime issue"
-- Gov. Jeb Bush
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 02:40:41 [Permalink]
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| Next step, pre-emptive defense. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 02:50:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
http://us.cnn.com/2005/US/04/05/deadly.force.ap/index.html [quote]TALLAHASSEE, Florida (AP) -- Gov. Jeb Bush said Tuesday he intends to sign a bill that would allow people who feel threatened -- even on the street or at a baseball game -- to "meet force with force" and defend themselves without fear of prosecution.[/quote]"Good, common sense, anti-crime issue"
-- Gov. Jeb Bush
But you can already do that. I don't see what difference it would make unless one or both parties were already armed with something more deadly than a quickly picked up weapon of chance.
I would not like to think that everyone is being encouraged to carry firearms. I have noticed that when a firearm is involved in a fight, bystanders tend to get shot as often as the participants, sometimes even those intelligent bystanders who are trying to get out of the way.
And if my own pistols are any example, who'd want to haul one of the heavy fuckers around?
I can forsee a booming market in cheaters, those little pistols that used to be called: "Saturday Night Specials," another meaningless, political term. While some are of excellent design and quality, none are particularly useful much beyond a dangerous scare tactic due to questionable accuracy -- which might not mean much anyway, when the adrenelin is pumping. Indeed, it seems that their owners often shoot themselves either getting the piece out or, worse yet, showing it off.
On the other hand, I walk around with with quite a stout cane. It might even be considered in the truncheon catatory. There are better ways.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 09:44:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Next step, pre-emptive defense.
Slippery slope. Also the typical reaction to be expected from anti-gun people. Not an honest skeptical evaluation.
quote:
I can forsee a booming market in cheaters, those little pistols that used to be called: "Saturday Night Specials," another meaningless, political term.
Forsee? heh, you are late to this game filthy :P
Personally, I already own three small pistols capable of being concealed easily in a pocket. They are quite common down here in FL.
FL already has concealed carry legislation. It requires people to attend training in firearms safety, it requires thorough FBI background checks on all who apply, and it requires people to demonstrate that they are fully aware of the laws that govern the use of deadly force.
This new legislation only changes the rules concerning a previous requirement to attempt to retreat before you use force, IF you feel your life (of that of your family) is threatened.
The law did not change when/where you are allowed to carry a gun. The snippet from the cnn article about "even on the street or at a baseball game" is FOX style reporting. i.e. Fiction.
You are not allowed to carry a gun into any setting where there is a reasonable possibility of violence (bars, sports arenas, etc).
The idea that this type of law will create more violence or encourage people to use deadly force is pure bullshit.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 09:54:32 [Permalink]
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| That was more of an anti-Bush comment than an anti-gun comment. I think education and poverty reduction will do more to end crime than carrying guns and putting people in prison. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 11:15:36 [Permalink]
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I actually came into the game early; I just haven't been playing it for a while.
NC too, has a concealed carry licensing system, pretty much the same as FL's, and a lot of people are signed up in it. I was tempted, but my natural paranoia set in and I decided that I was on too many lists already. Besides, for all practicle purposes, I am always armed for any arms-reach confrontation.
I have a relativly small (4 inch barrel) .32 that would make a good walk-around weapon. The rest are IHMSA match pistols. The little Smith is always loaded and in the house, and has occupied that status for some three decades. Both of my daughters learned to shoot with it.
Fox et al do love to bend it out of shape...
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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sweetmiracle
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 12:16:22 [Permalink]
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Isn't this just common sense? In some cases, force MUST be met with force. Unless you happen to prefer dying, that is. It's nice to think that education and poverty reduction will solve things, but that doesn't do much good when some crack addict is in your house with a gun or someone starts slugging you at a a baseball game (actually that happened to a friend at a 6-7 year-olds' soccer game. The assailant then went to get a gun. my friend was able to leave, but what if he hadn't succeeded?)There have been a few cases where school shootings have been halted by armed teachers.
Florida is a strange state on some things, though. Amnesty International is decrying their police force's unnecessary uses of Tasers in some situations, such as 6 year olds with glass and people who are already subdued but who aren't following orders fast enough.
http://www.amnestyusa.org/children/document.do?id=1A01E91E134A327080256F190042408D
http://www.amnestyusa.org/stoptorture/document.do?id=1E588837194B6F6385256FD60068C20A |
Remarkable claims require remarkable proof.
-Carl Sagan |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 12:48:07 [Permalink]
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This is just more nonsense from politicians, and does nothing to solve the problem of crime.
http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/cont...4-04/01wise.cfm
"Poverty, geography and living conditions as the key to crime
Not only do politicians tend to support policies that make things worse, they rarely talk about the kinds of policies needed to make things substantially better, at least in the long term. Though it may be unpopular with many, the fact remains that the conditions of poverty and economic marginalization are the key factors driving violent crimes in the U.S., and only an amelioration of those conditions can hold out long-term and lasting hope for reducing the risk of victimization to the nation's people.
No, poverty does not cause crime itself, and yes most poor folks don't commit crime. But that doesn't deny the link between economic destitution and criminality. After all, not everyone who smokes gets cancer--in fact, most probably won't--but no one seriously disputes the linkage between the two things. Likewise, not everyone who gets shot in the head dies: but only a fool would dispute the pretty high correlation between those things either. " |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2005 : 14:26:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Not only do politicians tend to support policies that make things worse, they rarely talk about the kinds of policies needed to make things substantially better, at least in the long term. Though it may be unpopular with many, the fact remains that the conditions of poverty and economic marginalization are the key factors driving violent crimes in the U.S., and only an amelioration of those conditions can hold out long-term and lasting hope for reducing the risk of victimization to the nation's people.
Or allowing me to shoot anyone who decides that they can cause me harm because they don't care for their economic situation.
FL crime rates, as a % of population, have been decreasing steadily for years. The concealed carry laws are a part of that.
Yes, increasing the educational level of all people and increasing general standards of living are a great idea. Such a thing would probably have a significant impact on all crime rates. Now, any ideas on how to make such a thing happen in a reasonable way? No. And there you have the reason why such a thing hasn't already been done.
Reality: In a capitalist society there will be rich people and there will be poor people. The US has managed to maintain a fairly decent plan for redistribution of wealth, hence our large middle class. But, if you tell people that they aren't allowed to be rich... then you are no longer in a capitalist society.
In the US, especially in the US, every person has the chance to become educated. All the excuses of poverty and circumstances don't hold water in the face of our mandatory education (K-12) and community college networks. Every single person who chooses to do so can attend a community college. FREE. It's called the PELL GRANT. If you make less than a certain ammount of money (or, if you are under 24, your parents make less than the ammount) then you can get a pell grant large enough to cover tuition and books for fulltime attendance at a junior/community college. The US also has a federal plan that makes it fairly easy to get a student loan. There are also technical schools where the PELL grants can be used as well.
Really, there is almost no excuse for people to fail to educate themselves. It is a choice not to.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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