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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 04/08/2005 : 08:09:51
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The index itself isn't new, but what's new (to me, at least) is that CreationWiki has started working on a response to it.
And that response, where it exists (this is clearly an effort which is just starting), seems to almost uniformly miss the point. For example, let's look at claim CA002.1, "Darwinism leads to social Darwinism, the policy that the weak should be allowed to fail and die." In the Talk.Origins index, we read (among other responses):Evolutionary theory shows us that the long-term survival of a species is strongly linked with its genetic variability. All Social Darwinist programs advocate minimizing genetic variability, thus reducing chances of long-term survival in the event of environmental change. An understanding of evolution should then rebuke any attempt at social Darwinism if the long-term survival of humanity is treated as a goal. What is the CreationWiki rebuttal?Actually the correct wording of this claim is that social Darwinism; the policy that the weak should be allowed to fail and die; comes logically out of Darwinism. That's it. That's the whole thing (besides a reference). It simply states that the "evolutionists" got the wording of the claim wrong, and utterly fails to address the point of whether or not social Darwinism does come "logically out of Darwinism."
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- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 09:22:18 [Permalink]
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| I wish I could say that this was something new, but unfortunately. I already had to conclude a long time ago that creationists (and more in general, fundamentalist christians) have an uncanny ability to totally miss the point being made. |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 10:46:04 [Permalink]
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Well, no, their ability to miss the point isn't new, either. Only the construction of the "response" to the Index of Creationist Claims. The earliest "last edit date" I could find was November 19th, 2004.
An interesting note: The entry on Moab man simply says that the creationists are wrong. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 11:09:02 [Permalink]
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Well, I wasted an hour of my life browsing it. 
But I rather liked this one:
quote:
CB930.3
From CreationWiki
Claim CB930.3 (http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB930_3.html):
An apatosaurus-like dinosaur may still be alive in swamps in the Congo.
Source: Doolan, Robert, 1993. Are Dinosaurs alive today? Where Jurassic Park went wrong. (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1302.asp) Creation Ex Nihilo 15(4) (Sep.): 12-15.
Hovind, Kent, 1998. Dr. Hovind's "Creation Seminar" part 3b: Dinosaurs alive today. (http://www.algonet.se/~tourtel/hovind_seminar/seminar_part3b.html)
CreationWiki response:
(Talk Origins quotes in blue)
1. The reputed "dinosaur," mokele-mbembe, is folklore. O'Hanlon [373 this link is apparently dead and I have shortened it to fit the page (filthy) reports the answer upon asking a native if he had seen Mokele-mbembe:
"What a stupid question," said Doubla, looking genuinely surprised. . . . "Mokele-mbembe is not an animal like a gorilla or python. And Mokele-mbembe is not a sacred animal. It doesn't appear to people. It is an animal of mystery. It exists because we imagine it. But to see it--never. You don't see it."
All this shows is that Talk Origins' source had found a tribe that Mokele-mbembe has not lived near for a long enough time that it has taken on a mystical nature in their minds.
And it continues on with a lot of speculative blather and a bit of nonsencical whining about how difficult it is to observe anything in a swamp, plus a lack of funding for this sort of tripe.
In my experience, swamps are the best places to observe wildlife, and I hope to spend some quality time in a few this summer.
One notes that it uses *snicker* Kent Hovind for a reference.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/08/2005 11:16:46 |
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tkster
Skeptic Friend
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 12:58:09 [Permalink]
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Jonathan Sampson is one of the people in charge of the CreationWiki, and it's been going on for a while now.
Nothing new.
tk |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 17:08:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Hey, give 'em some credit, they got one right.
Yeah, but then we have the timeline and the chain of events. But they conveniently ignored that part. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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sweetmiracle
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2005 : 17:20:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky
Hey, give 'em some credit, they got one right.
From what I've read, Magueijo gets pretty mad at creationists trying to use his ideas to further their agenda... |
Remarkable claims require remarkable proof.
-Carl Sagan |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 18:46:10 [Permalink]
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Well, it seems that they've added a bit since then!
Here's a snippet:
quote:
It further needs to be noted that this is a theological statement not a scientific one, and is accepted by many who are not creationists. The fact that Talk Origins has chosen to attack this issue with such fury shows that their contempt is for the Bible and Christianity in general, rather than just creationism.
Still playing the martyr card.
Told you we should keep an eye on them. |
>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 19:10:40 [Permalink]
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This is beautiful:By the way it needs to be noted that the bloody history of the Moslems started before they encountered Christians. Islam started in what, 700 AD or so? These creationists have evidence that there were no Christians whatsoever in or around the Holy Land in the eighth century?
Wow. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 19:50:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
These creationists have evidence that there were no Christians whatsoever in or around the Holy Land in the eighth century?
Nice....
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 20:26:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
This is beautiful:By the way it needs to be noted that the bloody history of the Moslems started before they encountered Christians. Islam started in what, 700 AD or so? These creationists have evidence that there were no Christians whatsoever in or around the Holy Land in the eighth century?
Wow.
Since Muhammed supposedly hung around in Saudi Arabia, perhaps they mean that the "bloody history" started there among Arab tribes before they got Christians as their common enemies? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2005 : 01:22:13 [Permalink]
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I'm glad they've cleared this up, anyway:
quote:
It is the original text that is inerrant, not interpretation of the text. Talk.Origins seems to be confusing the two. With possibly a few exceptions Christians are well aware of the possibility of misinterpreting the Bible and try to avoid it.
So, the skeptic must ask, where might one find these original writings, if such exist? And if indeed they exist, why are they not used in place of the various versions of the Bible? I'm sure that with today's highly skillful translators and computer technology (and with a blessing or two thrown in), a very accurate translation could be made. And if they no longer exist, for whatever reason, then how the hell can you make such an unsubstantiated claim?
These guys are long on wind and short on substance. It's small wonder that they are so attracted to politics.
Good catch on the Muslim dates, by the way..... 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 06/23/2005 : 06:45:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
Since Muhammed supposedly hung around in Saudi Arabia, perhaps they mean that the "bloody history" started there among Arab tribes before they got Christians as their common enemies?
Well, Muhammad ascended to Heaven in Jerusalem, but even if he hadn't left Saudi, that'd just make these creationists out to be bigots, since not all Arabs follow Islam (and couldn't before Muhammad came on the scene).
Doesn't matter, anyway, since they're just trying to distract from obvious Christian misdeeds by saying, "well, those guys over there are worse than us" (even though they now have Fred Phelps, whether they want him or not). Along with a "No True Christian" argument in the preceeding paragraphs, as they bash the Catholics. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 06/24/2005 : 05:12:15 [Permalink]
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The rings of Saturn and the other gas giants were created during a "system wide disaster, possibly associated with the Genesis Flood."
http://www.nwcreation.net/wiki/index.php?title=CE240
These people would be entertaining if it wasn't for their political and ideological ambitions. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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