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 More blather from the AiG nitwits.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2005 :  11:11:10  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
I object to the term: "living fossil." These animals are not fossils at all but merely related, sometimes very closely, to ancient species. The horse shoe crab, for example. But I suppose that it makes for some fairly good, if silly, prose.

Now they are insulting one of my favorites in this manner:
quote:
Salamanders are ‘living fossils'!
by David Catchpoole, Australia

You've heard of ‘living fossils'? These are usually announced (often with much media fanfare) when something known only from the fossil record, long presumed extinct for millions of years, is unexpectedly found living somewhere. Examples of such living fossils include the coelacanth fish, the Wollemi pine tree (see Missing? or misinterpreted?), and the ‘Gladiator' insect.1

But the latest animal to be pronounced a living fossil is one that has been familiar to generations of people for as long as anyone can remember; namely, the salamander.

So how can something long known to be living, suddenly be dubbed a ‘living fossil'?

The circumstances behind this, and the rationale for it, are described in a scientific paper in the journal Nature, by researchers who found fossils of juvenile and subadult salamanders in Upper Mongolia, China.2

The gist of the story is that these fossil specimens are from the Cryptobranchidae salamander family, which includes the modern-day Asian giant salamander (Andrias) and the North American hellbender (Cryptobranchus). Until this recent discovery, the earliest cryptobranchid salamander fossils were dated by evolutionists to around 60 million years ago, but these salamander fossils from Upper Mongolia are said to predate them ‘by a remarkable 100 million years'.3 And, with an assigned age of 161 million years, ‘the new cryptobranchid shows extraordinary morphological similarity to its living relatives', which ‘underscores the stasis within salamander anatomical evolution'.2 Stasis means ‘a period or state of inactivity or equilibrium'.4 However, major evolution should have happened in 160 million years! That's why the researchers conclude that cryptobranchid salamanders alive today ‘can be regarded as living fossils'.

I have been privileged to encounter hellbenders on several occasions, and I've actually handled one, caught on a fishline and released, once.
quote:
Introduction

Hellbenders are not the largest salamanders in the world, but they're pretty close. The largest hellbender ever recorded was just over 29 inches long! Hellbenders can weigh up to about 4 - 5 lbs. Their close relatives in Japan and China, salamanders in the genus Andrias, can reach lengths over 5 feet and may weigh as much as 100 lbs.

Hellbenders have a flat body and head, a large, very keeled tail that helps to propel them through the water, and tiny eyes. They have fleshy folds of skin along the sides of their body which help to take in oxygen from the water. The arms and legs are very large and muscular and they have 5 fingers on their rear feet and 4 on the front feet. Hellbenders can range in color from dull brown or gray to bright orange or red. They usually have some sort of darker spots or blotches on their bodies, but the belly is usually only one color. If you pick up a hellbender you will find out very quickly that they are extremely slimy! This makes them very difficult to catch and to handle, but it probably serves the purpose of keeping them free from infections and may help to cut down on the friction of the very fast flowing water they live in. Hellbenders do h

"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Dave W.
Info Junkie

USA
26022 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2005 :  13:31:39   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Dave W.'s Homepage Send Dave W. a Private Message
quote:
However, major evolution should have happened in 160 million years!
Says who? Nice strawman AiG's got there.

- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too.
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Dude
SFN Die Hard

USA
6891 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2005 :  19:37:04   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send Dude a Private Message
quote:
However, major evolution should have happened in 160 million years! That's why the researchers conclude that cryptobranchid salamanders alive today ‘can be regarded as living fossils'.



What Dave_W said....


Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson

"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin

Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard

USA
3834 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2005 :  01:09:36   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send beskeptigal a Private Message
Why would "major evolution" happen in any time frame? We have sharks and aligators that are fairly ancient. And of course there's the infamous Celocanth. And we have viruses that have evoloved dramatically over night. It isn't just a straw man, it isn't even correct.
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Chippewa
SFN Regular

USA
1496 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2005 :  02:50:49   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Visit Chippewa's Homepage Send Chippewa a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by filthy

I object to the term: "living fossil." These animals are not fossils at all but merely related, sometimes very closely, to ancient species. The horse shoe crab, for example. But I suppose that it makes for some fairly good, if silly, prose.
Now they are insulting one of my favorites in this manner:

From the article:
quote:
But what about the ‘millions-of-years' date assigned to the fossils; surely those ages are not consistent with the Bible? Indeed, they are not. For one thing, the universe is only around 6,000 years old according to the Scriptures, and secondly, there was no death of animals or man before Adam sinned, so these fossilized creatures must have died after that time, not before.


This shows one of many irrational and immoral aspects of fundamentalist "thinking":
So some poor self-respecting Great White Shark swimming in the ocean at the time of Adam & Eve, who didn't know them from...well, from "Adam" - suddenly is condemned to death; along with dolphins, crustaceans, jellyfish, fish, land mammals, insects, grass, pine trees, bunny rabbits, you name it, all because Adam & Eve "sinned."

And many of these crazy people are running the country!

BTW: The Horseshoe Crab is really cool. Looks like some alien being, and has blood based on copper, not iron!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2005 :  02:55:22   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
I fail to see why such a great to-do is made over such animals as the coelacanth. I suspect that it is the discovery itself, remarkable if inevitable, rather than the animal's importance in evolutionary lineage that sounds the trumpets.

The world is filled with animals showing their ancient lineage. Most have speciated wildly from the orginal, if we can call it that, but still retain the basic forms of their ancestors, spiders and scorpions, for example. Sharks, known mainly from teeth are pretty much the same as their late Devonian kin, and cockroachs have happily observed the entrance of most other land-dwellers, and I've no doubt that, in the fullness of time, they will bid our species a fond farewell, then continue about the business of bugging our successors.

I find the horse shoe crab much more amazing than the coelacanth. It is far older and it's remaining species is little changed from it's Devonian form. It is prolific enough that it's eggs are an important if temporary food source for migratory sea birds. It is numerous where the coelacanth is restricted to pocket populations within a severely limited range.

The quaint and beautiful, little chambered nautilus is the sole survivor of the Devonian nautiloids and ammonites. It too, is virtually unchanged in form.

Crocodilians as well, are basicly unchanged, especally the gharical, if I've spelled that right. This narrow-snouted, Indian species greatly resembles it's ancestors, some of which reached a length of an appalling 50+ feet. It is strictly a fish-eater than can be as much as some 20 feet in length.

And there are many more.

So what's the big deal over these salamanders, as attractive as they are? Merely a couple more species that have survived and now, like the coelacanth, live in restricted ranges. I suspect that if the fossil record were more complete, it would be shown that many more sallies would fall into the 'living fossil' catagory. Ampheuma readily comes to mind -- as well other predators, it supports a species of serpent, Farancia abacura that feed on nothing else, a relationship that has been in place for a long time.

In short, it ain't that all big of a deal, and thus, I hurl AiG's straw man onto the compost heap with the contempt it deserves.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

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filthy
SFN Die Hard

USA
14408 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2005 :  03:05:35   [Permalink]  Show Profile Send filthy a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Chippewa

quote:
Originally posted by filthy

I object to the term: "living fossil." These animals are not fossils at all but merely related, sometimes very closely, to ancient species. The horse shoe crab, for example. But I suppose that it makes for some fairly good, if silly, prose.
Now they are insulting one of my favorites in this manner:

From the article:
quote:
But what about the ‘millions-of-years' date assigned to the fossils; surely those ages are not consistent with the Bible? Indeed, they are not. For one thing, the universe is only around 6,000 years old according to the Scriptures, and secondly, there was no death of animals or man before Adam sinned, so these fossilized creatures must have died after that time, not before.


This shows one of many irrational and immoral aspects of fundamentalist "thinking":
So some poor self-respecting Great White Shark swimming in the ocean at the time of Adam & Eve, who didn't know them from...well, from "Adam" - suddenly is condemned to death; along with dolphins, crustaceans, jellyfish, fish, land mammals, insects, grass, pine trees, bunny rabbits, you name it, all because Adam & Eve "sinned."

And many of these crazy people are running the country!

BTW: The Horseshoe Crab is really cool. Looks like some alien being, and has blood based on copper, not iron!
Thanks Chip. I'd forgotten that little tid-bit. Very cool indeed!

When one of these woo-woos comes up with the Devonain Bunny or the Cambrian Crock Croc, then I'll be impressed. But it ain't gonna happen because all they will ever have is empty rhetoric.


"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)

"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres


"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude

Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,

and Crypto-Communist!

Go to Top of Page

bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend

USA
139 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2005 :  09:34:20   [Permalink]  Show Profile  Send bloody_peasant a Yahoo! Message Send bloody_peasant a Private Message
quote:
Why would "major evolution" happen in any time frame? We have sharks and aligators that are fairly ancient. And of course there's the infamous Celocanth. And we have viruses that have evoloved dramatically over night. It isn't just a straw man, it isn't even correct.

Of course listing other "living fossil" species only fuels the fire of the creationists ;).

I've seen this argument quite a few times before. Its big weakness lies in the fact we can't tell if any major changes happened or not. We only know that a fossilized species had similar morphology than a living species. Creationists also often overlook many of the morphological differences between the fossil and living species in their argument claiming they are identical when in fact they are not. For example there are quite a few differences between the living Celocanth and its fossilized brethern.

So what we have is major taxa preserved for long periods of time in similar environments. This is not something unexpected by evolution despite AiG's wet dreams.
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