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lil_blk_haird_grl
New Member
2 Posts |
 Posted - 04/18/2005 : 00:32:14
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One of my students, normally a very bright and well adjusted boy, has been acting up in class recently. I scheduled a parent/teacher conference to tell his parents about his recent change and asked if there was anything I could do to help. His parents told me that the child was reacting to a change in the their current home situation. Thinking it was an impending divorce, separation or death in the family I asked about the change, telling the parent I knew of some great counslers, great afterschool programs and let know what I could do. They told me the problem will be solved within the next few weeks and that the situation was that the childs older brother had been sent away to be "reprogrammed". "Reprogrammed?" I asked. It turns out the older brother had been caught kissing another boy by his parents and they sent the child off to be "sexually reprogrammed". The parents are unhappy that their eldest offspring may be gay and sent him off to be "reprogrammed". In my opinion the boy is not a PC and I do not believe the kid can be "reprogrammed". Maybe just be able to repress his sexuality to please his parents but not have a rewarding sexual relationship. I know there are camps for these purposes all over the place but have never had it smiling in my face and never thought I'd have to help a seven-year-old understand that mommy and daddy don't hate Jacob just who he is. Would sending kid away for six weeks really change his sexual reference or did the parents get conned out of ten grand? I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this one, prolly because as a parent myself I could never do that to my son, anyone elses thoughts?
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2005 : 01:51:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by lil_blk_haird_grl
One of my students, normally a very bright and well adjusted boy, has been acting up in class recently. I scheduled a parent/teacher conference to tell his parents about his recent change and asked if there was anything I could do to help. His parents told me that the child was reacting to a change in the their current home situation. Thinking it was an impending divorce, separation or death in the family I asked about the change, telling the parent I knew of some great counslers, great afterschool programs and let know what I could do. They told me the problem will be solved within the next few weeks and that the situation was that the childs older brother had been sent away to be "reprogrammed". "Reprogrammed?" I asked. It turns out the older brother had been caught kissing another boy by his parents and they sent the child off to be "sexually reprogrammed". The parents are unhappy that their eldest offspring may be gay and sent him off to be "reprogrammed". In my opinion the boy is not a PC and I do not believe the kid can be "reprogrammed". Maybe just be able to repress his sexuality to please his parents but not have a rewarding sexual relationship. I know there are camps for these purposes all over the place but have never had it smiling in my face and never thought I'd have to help a seven-year-old understand that mommy and daddy don't hate Jacob just who he is. Would sending kid away for six weeks really change his sexual reference or did the parents get conned out of ten grand? I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this one, prolly because as a parent myself I could never do that to my son, anyone elses thoughts?
These 'camps' are indeed common, and I fear the kid(s) are well and truly screwed, as well as the parents now being out 10 thou.
More and more, the research is showing that homosexuality is pretty much wired in geneticly. There is nothing the 're-programimg' can accomplish beyond making the kid miserable. And I suspect that the people who operate these facilities know it perfectly well, despite their grand claims of success (they all make them). I think of these sorts of operations as pious scams, and the chilling part of it all is that they are entirely legal and virtually unregulated.
You might make some inquiries into the histories and qualifications of the staff, if you want to rock the boat a bit. There might be a criminal background or two in there, but beyond that, I don't see much that you can do.
Welcome to SFN!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2005 : 06:54:56 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by lil_blk_haird_grl
One of my students, normally a very bright and well adjusted boy, has been acting up in class recently. I scheduled a parent/teacher conference to tell his parents about his recent change and asked if there was anything I could do to help. His parents told me that the child was reacting to a change in the their current home situation. Thinking it was an impending divorce, separation or death in the family I asked about the change, telling the parent I knew of some great counslers, great afterschool programs and let know what I could do. They told me the problem will be solved within the next few weeks and that the situation was that the childs older brother had been sent away to be "reprogrammed". "Reprogrammed?" I asked. It turns out the older brother had been caught kissing another boy by his parents and they sent the child off to be "sexually reprogrammed". The parents are unhappy that their eldest offspring may be gay and sent him off to be "reprogrammed". In my opinion the boy is not a PC and I do not believe the kid can be "reprogrammed". Maybe just be able to repress his sexuality to please his parents but not have a rewarding sexual relationship. I know there are camps for these purposes all over the place but have never had it smiling in my face and never thought I'd have to help a seven-year-old understand that mommy and daddy don't hate Jacob just who he is. Would sending kid away for six weeks really change his sexual reference or did the parents get conned out of ten grand? I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around this one, prolly because as a parent myself I could never do that to my son, anyone elses thoughts?
The parents just spent $10,000 to make their child unhappy and confused. You cannot reprogram sexuality. Sexual identity likely has a genetic component as well as a psychological one. They are in essence treating the child as if he had a mental disease. Granted, the ICD9 books had homosexuality defined as a diagnosis in psychology. The operative word here is "had". It was dropped during the 70's.
Sending the child away for six weeks won't "cure" homosexuality. (Can't cure something that isn't wrong) It will encourage the child to repress his natural sexual urges, consider the urges "bad", and have a deterimental effect on his self esteem. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2005 : 07:16:44 [Permalink]
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It sounds like the parents are programinig him to hate himself and his family. Hopefully, this kid is old enough that soon he can get away from his parents and accept who he is without too much more trama. 
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2005 : 07:39:39 [Permalink]
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Ugh this has made my stomach turn :< I have heard of several camps for "troubled" teens which have been shut down for terrible conditions and abuse. Many seem to come away severely damaged and traumatized some even suffering from PTSD. They would usually enlist the older students to help enforce the strict regime and its punishments for transgressions. I would never consider a child's sexual orientation as needing this type of treatment or even as "troubled" unless it was related to farm animals or cadaevors.
While sometimes a "troubled" child might be signs of something wrong biologically or psychologically with the child most times its a sign of bad parenting. |
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2005 : 07:43:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
More and more, the research is showing that homosexuality is pretty much wired in geneticly.
I would like to add that like just about any complex behavioral trait there is always a genetic and always an environmental component. Studies of siblings separated at birth (especially identical twins) help us to identify to about what percentage these traits are determined by genetics and environments. Oddly these percentages seem to come out to about 70/30 for genetic/environment which seems true for many traits such as IQ, sexual orientation, and even many physical traits such as height or weight.
To clarify by environment this includes all environmental history as well as present conditions including the time in the womb. |
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2005 : 08:57:16 [Permalink]
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| I've seen that 30/70 figure around quite a lot in these discussions, but i haven't yet found a source for it. Does anyone know the original reference? |
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2005 : 09:38:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Plyss
I've seen that 30/70 figure around quite a lot in these discussions, but i haven't yet found a source for it. Does anyone know the original reference?
I originally heard it from my physical anthropology professor and have read it a couple of times since. The sources seems to come from several studies on such matters. I will see if I can find anything concrete on the matter such as a published paper.
I also seem to have read something similar in Futuyma's Evolutionary Biology textbook (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0878931899/qid=1113841992/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-2174068-3215362). I will check tonight and see if I can re-find it or if I am remembering incorrectly. He has at least one whole chapter on the expression of phenotypes, including the formulae involved in calculating % of trait due to genetics and % due to environmental factors. With the slew of refs. listed at the end of each chapter I'm sure I can find something there.
It appears that the more complex the expression of the trait the more environmental factors play a role. For instance blood type or eye color within humans has little environmental influence and are almost all genetic. Gender which is a fairly complex trait and has lots of environmentally induced variation ties into this very topic. Some dramatic examples of environmental effects on gender include females who get too much testosterone in the womb and thus develop partial male genatalia. We typically think of gender being very genetic but in reality it seems to follow the 70/30 divide as well.
This varies from species to species. For instance some reptiles and fish change gender completely based on environmental factors. For others their blood type is affected by environmental effects. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 01:34:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by bloody_peasant
quote:
Originally posted by Plyss
I've seen that 30/70 figure around quite a lot in these discussions, but i haven't yet found a source for it. Does anyone know the original reference?
I originally heard it from my physical anthropology professor and have read it a couple of times since. The sources seems to come from several studies on such matters. I will see if I can find anything concrete on the matter such as a published paper.
I also seem to have read something similar in Futuyma's Evolutionary Biology textbook (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0878931899/qid=1113841992/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-2174068-3215362). I will check tonight and see if I can re-find it or if I am remembering incorrectly. He has at least one whole chapter on the expression of phenotypes, including the formulae involved in calculating % of trait due to genetics and % due to environmental factors. With the slew of refs. listed at the end of each chapter I'm sure I can find something there.
It appears that the more complex the expression of the trait the more environmental factors play a role. For instance blood type or eye color within humans has little environmental influence and are almost all genetic. Gender which is a fairly complex trait and has lots of environmentally induced variation ties into this very topic. Some dramatic examples of environmental effects on gender include females who get too much testosterone in the womb and thus develop partial male genatalia. We typically think of gender being very genetic but in reality it seems to follow the 70/30 divide as well.
This varies from species to species. For instance some reptiles and fish change gender completely based on environmental factors. For others their blood type is affected by environmental effects.
Just a tiny correction: reptiles don't change gender like many fish do. Rather, in many cases (the research is still on-going), the temperature of the nest determines the male-female proportions of the clutch. This is especally prevelant in turtles and crocodilians.
On the other hand, some species of lizards are parthenogentic. There are no males in the species' and all of their offspring are clones of the parent. This is suspected in some snakes, but at my last reading (some time ago), nothing conclusive has been put forth.
To make it even more confusing, most if not all reptiles, except the parthenogentic ones, can store sperm for an extended period, as long as at least a couple of years, literally choosing when to fertilize the eggs. Every once in a while, you read of an 'immaculate conception' at some zoo or other, when an animal they've had for a while suddenly dumps a clutch of "impossible!" eggs, or in the case of the ovoviviperous, fully formed young. Local newspapers have a lot of fun with that.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 02:57:43 [Permalink]
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There was a piece on this topic in the movie Saved! The main character's boyfriend was sent off to a reprograming camp because he was gay. But before going the girl had sex with him because she thought God wanted her to to 'save' him from being gay. The girl got pregnant. Later the boy finds a new 'boy'friend at the reprogramming camp, (where else?).
I really liked the movie. My son thought it was more average.
You are exactly right in your reaction, lil_blk_haird_grl. It really is a shame parents can so mess up their kids by stupid beliefs. It's one thing to send your kid off for inpatient drug treatment, but it's quite another to think you can change biology. These folks who just can't figure out people do not 'choose' to be gay also see no correlation to past times when mentally ill persons were either seen as possessed or their condition shameful or more recently when parents, especially moms were blamed for autism.
I had a very sad child neglect case in the hospital I worked at long ago. I still remember my head nurse telling me some kids just live that way and you can't fix everything. She was right, even though it was really sad. Do what you can but it probably won't be enough.
I'd just offer to listen to the child in your class if he cared to talk about it. I'd tell him not everyone thinks the same about gays but he'll have to make up his own mind. It's likely very hard not to side against the parents but I guess I'd try to talk in more neutral areas about the situation. Kids don't want to think their parents are bad. The child might just think his brother is sick, or going to hell or some other misconception about the whole thing. You never know how kids interpret the things they observe unless they tell you. Maybe he just needs reassurance his brother will be all right.
BTW, welcome to the board. |
| Edited by - beskeptigal on 04/19/2005 03:07:47 |
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 05:32:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Just a tiny correction: reptiles don't change gender like many fish do. Rather, in many cases (the research is still on-going), the temperature of the nest determines the male-female proportions of the clutch. This is especally prevelant in turtles and crocodilians.
No problem, I was going from fairly foggy memory on the subject, but I do seem to recall at least one terrestrial species that done this, maybe its an amphibian of some sorts, like a newt.
quote:
To make it even more confusing, most if not all reptiles, except the parthenogentic ones, can store sperm for an extended period, as long as at least a couple of years, literally choosing when to fertilize the eggs. Every once in a while, you read of an 'immaculate conception' at some zoo or other, when an animal they've had for a while suddenly dumps a clutch of "impossible!" eggs, or in the case of the ovoviviperous, fully formed young. Local newspapers have a lot of fun with that.
LOL that's great, I wonder if any of the eggs had an image of Jesus on it. >:-D "Get your holy egg now only $500.00" Followed by a cracking sound and a scream as a baby copperhead sinks its teeth in >:-D
Dang I was busy last night (ok I was drunk so sue me) and I forgot to look up the ref. I'll try again tonight assuming I stay away from the frothy brew. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 06:26:18 [Permalink]
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Some amphibians can indeed change gender, a handy trait to have if your species has a thin, local populaltion. I'm not sure which ones, though, and these studies are still going on.
It must be remembered that these are much closer to our fishy ancestors than reptiles, and are generally a bit on the weird side; in cases like the surinam toad (not a gender-bender) very weird indeed. Don't ya gotta love 'em?
For a pretty good rundown on the surinam toad, look at the 'God went off his meds' thread. It's the OP.
Edited to add link.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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| Edited by - filthy on 04/19/2005 07:50:55 |
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Paulos23
Skeptic Friend
USA
446 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 08:02:06 [Permalink]
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| You know, I have tried to find news articals on this, but I haven't found any from a major news outlet. Why is this going under the media news radar? I would think 'libral' media would be all over this. |
You can go wrong by being too skeptical as readily as by being too trusting. -- Robert A. Heinlein
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -- Aldous Huxley |
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sweetmiracle
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 09:25:50 [Permalink]
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One thing to throw in about teens being gay... a lot of experimentation goes on in the teen years. Many (or according to some studies, most) boys try out sex with other males just for the experience, but find out that they like girls better....
By treating their son like a pariah instead of supporting him, they could activate his 'rebellion reflex' and add to his confusion... |
Remarkable claims require remarkable proof.
-Carl Sagan |
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Wendy
SFN Regular
USA
614 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 10:41:53 [Permalink]
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When I was MUCH younger a close male friend killed himself. He was gay, and his parents were unable or unwilling to accept him after he "came out". I still think of him often.
This thread made me wonder how many teen suicides are related to sexual orientation. I found this site (the study is old) that estimates "gay youth are 2 to 3 times more likely to commit suicide than other young people." From the article:
quote:
The report recommended that "mental health and youth service agencies can provide acceptance and support for young homosexuals, train their personnel on gay issues, and provide appropriate gay adult role models; schools can protect gay youth from abuse from their peers and provide accurate information about homosexuality in health curricula; families should accept their child and work toward educating themselves about the development and nature of homosexuality."
Adolescence is such a difficult time, even under the best of circumstances. Parental support is so important. My heart goes out to your student and his brother. I'm glad at least that there are concerned teachers like you, lil_blk_haird_grl.
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Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do on a rainy afternoon.
-- Susan Ertz
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lil_blk_haird_grl
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 22:54:52 [Permalink]
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Thanks everyone for your input. I felt like I was losing my mind after school last Friday. I asked another teacher whos opinion I used to value if she thought "reprogramming" is possible and she said I should just leave it alone if I want to keep my job and that no matter what I thought the parents were going to do what they wanted with that child.
But I don not believe these camps work. Maybe help kids repress their feelings, help them feel ashamed of who they are. I feel like lending those people my copy of 'But I'm a Cheerleader' and maybe they could see how idiotic this all seems.
I do not believe sexuality is chosen but determined in the womb but believe that certain tramatic events (rape, molestation) can alter sexual orientation and in both of those situations the child is not to blame. I want to sent those parents to a "reprogramming" camp. They are the ones with the problem. I know I'm ranting but as parents, although my son is only three, his father and I have always said he could be gay, straight, bi or transgender we could care less as long as he is happy and knows we love him no matter who he shares a bed with.
And thank you for the information on lizards and fish. My 2nd graders love to hear new information on their favorite animals and I'll be sure a certain child tells his parents that certain creatures can change thenselves sexually unlike humans. |
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