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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
 Posted - 04/18/2005 : 07:02:53
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Religious nuts work against human papilloma virus vaccine.
NewScientist::Will cancer vaccine get to all women?quote:
"Abstinence is the best way to prevent HPV," says Bridget Maher of the Family Research Council, a leading Christian lobby group
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"Giving the HPV vaccine to young women could be potentially harmful, because they may see it as a licence to engage in premarital sex," Maher claims, though it is arguable how many young women have even heard of the virus.
quote:
HPV is extremely common. Half of all sexually active women between 18 and 22 in the US are infected. Most cases clear up, but sometimes infection persists and can cause cancer decades later.
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
 Posted - 04/19/2005 : 05:34:41 [Permalink]
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For heaven's sake.
By their logic, we shouldn't give people drugs that lower their cholesterol, because that might encourage them to eat bacon. We shouldn't treat lung cancer because that might encourage people to smoke.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 06:42:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
For heaven's sake.
By their logic, we shouldn't give people drugs that lower their cholesterol, because that might encourage them to eat bacon. We shouldn't treat lung cancer because that might encourage people to smoke.
And we shouldn't treat fractured bones and arthritis, or let the suffers thereof have electric sick-sleds to scoot around on when they can't walk so good,'cause it will encourage injurous behavior. Also, them scooters looks like fun, and we ain't havin' none o' that, now are we?
It's all more fundie bullshit. I'm reading that some working as druggists have refused to sell contraceptives. I'd like to find one of these turkies and try to buy about a half pound of condoms from him, then raise the roof when he refuses to sell them.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 06:50:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I'm reading that some working as druggists have refused to sell contraceptives. I'd like to find one of these turkies and try to buy about a half pound of condoms from him, then raise the roof when he refuses to sell them.
Such morons should be fired on the spot.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 07:39:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Starman
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
I'm reading that some working as druggists have refused to sell contraceptives. I'd like to find one of these turkies and try to buy about a half pound of condoms from him, then raise the roof when he refuses to sell them.
Such morons should be fired on the spot.
Apparently, a few have been, or at least told to change their ways or seek new employment. And some stores say it's ok, but the clerk must hand the customer off to someone who will sell them.
The condoms I'd buy would be "black, ribbed knobblers." 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 07:53:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Also, them scooters looks like fun, and we ain't havin' none o' that, now are we?
They are. Especially the new kind I've seen, made for beaches and otherwise sandy, unstable territory. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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sweetmiracle
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 09:11:47 [Permalink]
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How far should the state go in forcing people to act against their religious beliefs?
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Remarkable claims require remarkable proof.
-Carl Sagan |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 12:41:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by sweetmiracle
How far should the state go in forcing people to act against their religious beliefs?
Force??? Suppose I decided which patients I would treat or not treat because I didn't approve of them or their behavior and then blamed the government for forcing me....that is just plain stupid!!! Suppose the pharmacist decided pain meds were against his religion. Or he decides God wants AIDS patients to die for their sins. That is just not up to the employee. If they have such strong feelings they can't be a party to anything someone else does they don't approve of that worker needs a different job.
In health care we have always had the option of not being involved in an abortion procedure and I can see someone not wanting to dispense RU486, but birth control? Even the morning after pill shouldn't be up to the pharmacist to decide.
Why is it these folks have taken it upon themselves to correct everyone else's behavior? You suggest they are being forced but it is the other way around. That pharmacist is trying to force the woman to abide by his rules. |
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sweetmiracle
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 13:11:36 [Permalink]
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Think I'll disagree with this one. The govt. has no right to force people to do what they believe is wrong in most cases. If they can force religious people to do what they disagree with, they can go the other way and force non-religious people to conform to christian standards. Very dangerous ground here. Also, drug stores and many hospitals are private enterprises. They may serve the public, but they are not extensions of the government.
However, this is also the land of the (partly) free market, so we should take it upon ourselves to let those around us who might need certain drugs or procedures know who will support them and provide what they need and who will not. That will hurt the business, bottom line, which will make a serious impact right where it matters most to the owners. |
Remarkable claims require remarkable proof.
-Carl Sagan |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 14:37:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by sweetmiracle
Think I'll disagree with this one. The govt. has no right to force people to do what they believe is wrong in most cases. If they can force religious people to do what they disagree with, they can go the other way and force non-religious people to conform to christian standards. Very dangerous ground here. Also, drug stores and many hospitals are private enterprises. They may serve the public, but they are not extensions of the government.
However, this is also the land of the (partly) free market, so we should take it upon ourselves to let those around us who might need certain drugs or procedures know who will support them and provide what they need and who will not. That will hurt the business, bottom line, which will make a serious impact right where it matters most to the owners.
But this doesn't work with health care. Imagine if in the fifties the government said it was ok if hospitals in the south refused to give blacks blood transfusions from white patients? Or as beskeptigal said, refused to give AIDS patients their medicines?
The fact is, this is about medical treatment, not religion. If your religious views prevent you from filling prescriptions, then you are in the wrong field.
Indeed, if we allow pharmacists to "decide" which medications they will and will not dispense, how long before entire regions of the U.S. are contraception free? Radical christians will push their young missionaries to pursue pharmaceutical degrees just so they will be able to deny young women birth control. It could result in a virtual prohibition of these drugs in some states.
The government must ensure that its citizenry has access to legal, medically prescribed drugs. This is one case where consideration of personal religious inclinations must take a back seat to public health. Your idea of "letting the market decide" is totally irresponsible, as even one case where someone fails to receive the treatment they seek is absolutely unacceptable, especially as it may leads to an unwanted pregnancy, injury, or death.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 04/19/2005 14:56:40 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 15:16:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Also, them scooters looks like fun, and we ain't havin' none o' that, now are we?
They are. Especially the new kind I've seen, made for beaches and otherwise sandy, unstable territory.
The VA doesn't want to spend any more that they can help, so mine is one that won't go off a solid surface. It gets most of the job done, though. I can walk, I just can't do it for very long or very far, and the little sled is good for going to zoos and museums, and the like.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 17:52:11 [Permalink]
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Please explain how placing birth control pills in a bag and handing them to a woman violates someone's religious beliefs. The *pharmacist* isn't taking the birth control. He's HANDING IT to someone who is making a LEGAL CHOICE REGARDING HER HEALTH CARE.
He isn't PROMOTING or ENDORSING or ENCOURAGING anything. HE'S HANDING SOMEONE A PRODUCT.
God damn, I am tired of religious nutjobs harming the health of other in the guise of "practicing their religious beliefs." They can stick their religious beliefs in the orifice of their choice. 
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Renae: "Mom, why do the right wingers hate Hillary Cinton so much?"
Renae's Mom: "Because they have small penises." |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 20:21:09 [Permalink]
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Way back in the day, Richard Feynman told a story about working in a Jewish college in New York (I believe). Seems they hired gentiles to hit the elevator buttons on Saturdays, so that no Jew would be directly responsible for doing "work" on the Sabbath. Feynman found it odd that that the Jews would allow hire gentiles to break Commandments in their stead.
But it seems that these hypothetical conservative Christians have the opposite problem. (And I say "hypothetical" because I don't think I've seen - yet - an actual case of a pharmacist refusing to do the job on religious grounds. Obviously, if the lobbyists had their way, people would be in a world of hurt, but so far all they've done is bloviate.)
The problem being - and I understand this on a conceptual level - that they don't want to take even a small part in someone else's damnation. Just like most people wouldn't "enable" a repeat-DUI offender by blowing in the tube to unlock their car's ignition system, these Christians don't want to "enable" people to - for example - sin by having out-of-wedlock sex because they handed over some birth control pills.
The real crux of the matter is that there are "sinful" uses of these drugs, and "non-sinful" uses. These hypothetical pharmacists could not, due to legal restrictions, ask a person what use they intend to put BC pills towards, so that they could act as an honest guard against real sin. Instead, they would have to be paranoid: see the evil inherent in all people, and be forced to assume the worst.
With any luck, they'd turn away the prescription, so it could be filled elsewhere, instead of saying "yeah, I'll fill it" only to shred it as soon as the customer turns away. Of course, to do so would be lying, but since when has "lying for God" been seen by many as a sin itself?
sweetmiracle, the state already places many limits on the actions one is allowed to make in practising one's religion. It is illegal for Rastafarians to use marijuana. It's illegal for non-reservation American Indians to use peyote. You'll never see strict orthodox Jews making burnt offerings in public cafeterias. And it's assuredly a big no-no for anyone to perform a human sacrifice, anywhere in the US.
In ruling after ruling, the courts have concurred that people have the absolute freedom to believe whatever they want to believe, but their freedom to act as they claim their religion demands they act ends when it becomes a burden to someone else. "Free practice of religion" doesn't give a person the right to inflict their religion on someone else, no matter how slight the offense, or how noble the intentions. If our hypothetical pharmacist got sued for refusal to dispense any medication, "it's against my religion" would stand against (probably) thousands of pages of precedent in law.
In other words, that defense wouldn't have a chance in hell. The pharmacist - if possessing deep pockets - would appeal decisions all the way up to SCOTUS, and even that would fail. (And then the Republicans could get all their knickers in a twist about another "abuse of judicial power" which is nothing of the sort.)
Look at this another way... You don't find many Jews working the line in a pork processing plant. You won't find too many devout Hindus flipping burgers. Similarly, fundamentalist Muslims are likely to be absent at Jim Beam distilleries, and not too many Jehovah's Witnesses will be found driving blood mobiles. There are lots of different ways to make a living in this country, and only if the government said "you have to be a pharmacist, period" would the state in any way be "forcing" our hypothetical Christian to do something contrary to his/her religious beliefs. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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sweetmiracle
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 04/19/2005 : 21:49:49 [Permalink]
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I understand what you're saying, Dave. But what if we put the shoe on the other foot.
Suppose that out religious right-o-s got their beloved 'Prayer in schools' ammendment passed. (Yes, it may be unconstitutional, but so were income taxes, until the dubiously-passed 16th ammendment.) And suppose that you were a teacher. You couldn't bring yourself to lead the kids in your class through a generic 'blessings on us, our parents, our teachers and our country' stuff because you do not believe in a supreme being, or at least not one who pays any real attention to what goes on here on this piece of rock. But congress says you must. So does the constitution. Where does your professional resposibility, as defined by the state, end and your right to freedom of/from religion begin?
Should you then be out of a job? |
Remarkable claims require remarkable proof.
-Carl Sagan |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 04/20/2005 : 00:59:54 [Permalink]
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That is an easy one.
If you feel that you cant do things your job description tells you to do, you should quit and get another job. (An other way is to talk to your boss, tell him/her how you feel about it and ask if you could be relieved of those tasks.)
If you think that the action is so wrong that nobody should do it, first quit the job, then start lobbying.
If an illegal requirement is added to your previous duties (like 'Prayer in schools' or teach scientific creationism ), you have the law on your side when you refuse the task.
If 'Prayer in schools' should all of a sudden become legal you have two options. Live with it or quit! |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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