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tergiversant
Skeptic Friend
USA
284 Posts |
 Posted - 10/02/2001 : 14:28:33 [Permalink]
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| Finally, your suggestion that "[f]rom the beginning of American time, [God and country] have been entwined and inseparable," is downright laughable. The fathers of this nation not only prevented the government from mucking about with religion, they deliberately omitted any mention of God in the Constitution. I'll leave you with a few relevant quotations from the Founders themselves, which I strongly suspect were left out of the baby boomer's so-called "heritage" which was taught to them in the era of McCarthy, the Red Menace and the resultant historically unprecedented religious intolerance in America. "The legitimate powers of government," he wrote, "extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." (Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia. From Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, pp. 42-43. ) "I will never, by any word or act, bow to the shrine of intolerance, or admit a right of inquiry into the religious opinions of others." (Thomas Jefferson, letter to Edward Dowse, April 19, 1803. From Gorton Carruth and Eugene Ehrlich, eds., The Harper Book of American Quotations, New York: Harper & Row, 1988, p. 499.) "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion--as it has itself no character of enmity against the law, religion or tranquility of Musselmen [Muslims]… Now be it known, that I, John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said treaty do, by and within the consent of the Senate, accept, ratify and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. ("Treaty of Peace and Friendship between The United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary," 1796-1797. Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States of America. Edited by Hunter Miller. Vol. 2. 1776-1818. U.S. Government Printing Office, Washington, D.C., 1931, p. 383; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 45.) "I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency of a usurpation on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against trespass on its legal rights by others." (James Madison in a letter to one Reverend Adams. From Robert L. Maddox, Separation of Church and State: Guarantor of Religious Freedom, New York: Crossroad, 1987, p. 39.) This is just a small sampling, but I trust my point is clear. Please stop spreading further misinformation about this nation, the unbelievers living therein, or the rights that ought to be afforded to us. |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 16:45:31 [Permalink]
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I haven't written my reply as yet, but intend to. What makes it more difficult is that on purely political issues in the past, I have agreed very much with Ms. Parker.
In any case, well done all who have posted replies.
Terg: I especially like:
quote:
that is only because we believe that hands folded in prayer are as good as idle in a time of need.
Quite to the point. May I use it elsewhere?
My kids still love me. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 17:09:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
What makes it more difficult is that on purely political issues in the past, I have agreed very much with Ms. Parker.
This is part of why things are so scary now. People that have been perfectly reasonable in the past are suddenly spouting nonsense and are, as I see it, reacting to Islamic fundamentalism by retreating to Christian fundamentalism.
I saw in the paper today that Pat Robertson was issuing dire warnings again that the WTC attack was only the beginning of God's punishment and that America needs a revival in order to protect itself. I wish some other viewpoints would start getting the press that ol' fire and brimstone is getting. Why is it that the press is always labeled as "liberal" even though idiots like these get more press than they should? Hell, someone with Pat Robertson's recognition and access to the press should not be allowed that access when they say things like this. That would be more responsible of the press, but the press is not as liberal as many seem to think so he does get to pollute the minds of others with his fear mongering crap.
I wish that the press would open up some dialogues on the pervasivness of religion in American society and how it continually tries to intrude where it does not belong. But times like these make such dialogues much more difficult because the religious right is using this opportunity to their best advantage. I can't blame them really because a few weeks ago religion was sliding towards superfluousity in American culture if only slowly. Now they are going to milk this for all they can and it's royally pissing me off, too!
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 18:52:52 [Permalink]
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I'm back from a few days of just plain lurking here on the Gorgo the Fiend Network... ahem, cough, I meant to say the Skeptic Friends Network. Hope I'm not too much a persona non grata. I promise I won't accuse any of you of being fascist appeasers or brain-drained radicals...
I read "Ms." Parker's gut-wrenching tripe yesterday on USAToday's internet site. Here's Parker's personal website address (even better than her email) for instant flaming! As you can see, if you go into the chat room, non-believers are roasting her royally even as we speak for her inflammatory garbage.
To Trish, PhdDreamer and Tergiversant: Excellent letters - very well said, all of you! I'm working on mine to add to her charming little ol' down home (re:egotistical) website.
http://www.kparker.com/
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 19:10:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
...To Trish, PhdDreamer and Tergiversant: Excellent letters - very well said, all of you! I'm working on mine to add to her charming little ol' down home (re:egotistical) website. ...
For what it's worth, I'm also writing to Parker regarding her mistatements and her blatant stereotyping.
But I do want to caution folks against letting your own dismay/anger/outrage color your responses...don't paint all believers with the same brush you use on Parker/Robertson/etc. |
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James
SFN Regular
USA
754 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 19:42:43 [Permalink]
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I apologize if offends anyone posting here, but I just have to get this off my chest.
What really amazes me is that Robertson and Falwell have their own show and haven't been censored once! Well, yeah, there was that thing about gays, lesbians, etc., but not all homosexuals are atheists. And yet, Bill Maher, while I may not either agree with him nor watch his show all that often, is threatened with, if not is going to be pulled off the air for going after our military. IMO, just tell Maher to not offend the military for next few years, and we'll be fine.
Robertson & Falwell should be yanked, not Maher.
(/rant)
Thanks for the link to Parker's website, rubysue. After while, I'll post that on another board I'm on and even have some fun going through the responses on her website.
The way I see it, christians are godless too...they just don't know it yet.
Edited by - James on 10/02/2001 19:43:49 |
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 19:50:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
... What really amazes me is that Robertson and Falwell have their own show and haven't been censored once! ...
Who's going to censor them, James? They have their own network.
[aside]for better or ill???
Naw, definitely for 'ill'
"If in the last few years you haven't discarded a major opinion or acquired a new one, check your pulse. You may be dead." |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 19:51:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
To Trish, PhdDreamer and Tergiversant: Excellent letters - very well said, all of you! rubysue
Here here! This is the very type of fundamentalistic crap, that could turn these horrible events, into an even more horrible, as well as a misdirected, event, a real so called "Holy War." And civilization would be the victim. Don't, haven't, and will not trust fundamentalism, whatever it's source. Hope you include a copy for USA Today, as well as Mrs. Parker...
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire
Edited by - NubiWan on 10/02/2001 19:56:49 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2001 : 05:04:08 [Permalink]
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Murm?? snelk??
quote:
I'm back from a few days of just plain lurking here on the Gorgo the Fiend Network... ahem, cough,
Stop the murder of the Iraqi people.
http://www.endthewar.org |
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Marc_a_b
Skeptic Friend
USA
142 Posts |
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marvin
Skeptic Friend
77 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 15:42:07 [Permalink]
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Use this link, so you don't have to look at her silly face. |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2001 : 19:33:20 [Permalink]
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LOL!!!!!!!!! I LOVE IT!!!! Has anyone checked out Kathleen Parker's chat room lately? I've seen some really familiar names floating around there (wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more, say no more). Her cozy chat room has been turned into a robust and rowdy atheist/agnostic discussion board; it's now completely dominated by the 10-18% of the American public that she so brusquely dismissed as "silent" in the wake of the terror. The irony is almost unbearable! 
Lil' Missy Kathleen probably thought her newly minted personal website would become the sanctuary of tea-sipping little ol' ladies discussing the relative merits of Romans versus Timothy. She must be searching high and low for a BB exorcist or at least a good excuse to shut it down.
Good job, fellow skeptics!!
  
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2001 : 21:35:50 [Permalink]
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I checked out the site and even posted to a few topics. Oh yes, irony indeed. Her board is filled with both non-theist and non-apologist christians, but she's nowhere to be found.
I'm sure the past week has been an education. At least I hope so. Can we expect a "mea culpea"?
Lisa
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Zandermann
Skeptic Friend
USA
431 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2001 : 21:40:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
... Can we expect a "mea culpea"?
chuckle...don't hold your breath! |
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Piltdown
Skeptic Friend
USA
312 Posts |
Posted - 10/08/2001 : 23:43:59 [Permalink]
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Wow, KP's message board is quite a party, with fundy/thumpers in full retreat. I haven't posted there because everything I might have said seems to already be there.
I was very glad to see someone mention Tony Blair's words yesterday:
quote:
But even if no British citizen had died, it would be right to act. This atrocity was an attack on us all, on people of all faiths and people of none.
Bush couldn't say this even if he wanted to, which reflects the general decline of religion in the UK in sharp contrast to its continued influence here in the US.
I was also interested in the Christian Dominionist string. This is a truly frightful, and fast-growing, movement that should probably be getting more attention from atheists. Their most prominent spokes-fool, Gary North, was of course the leader of the Y2K prophets of doom. There are several Dominionist groups here in Lubbock. A young man associated with one of them blew himself up last year with a pipebomb he apparently intended for an abortion clinic.
Abducting UFOs and conspiring against conspiracy theorists since 1980. |
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