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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 05/10/2005 : 17:38:04 [Permalink]
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Hey Storm. Speaking of pondering, while thinking about this thread it occurred to me how much you will need us skeptics if you ever do stumble on some real, can't explain it any other way evidence for ghosts. That evidence will have to be looked at with a very skeptical eye. The evidence will have to pass tests that only science can provide. No one is going to believe a ghost hunter. (No one but other ghost hunters and those credulous enough to take them at their word, anyway.) Oh sure, a ghost hunter may stumble across the evidence. But that evidence won't mean a thing until the skeptics get their hands on it. It will not join the other major discoveries in science until the skeptics fail to tear it to shreds…
You need us.
Just a thought…
Now to this:
quote:
Storm:
Not only that but how can reincaration and communication with loved ones be paired up in the same thought... Reinicarnation is a completely different philospy then communication with deceased loved ones... Carl Sagan what were you thinking?
He was saying that there are many claims about an afterlife, some that he would personally like to believe. (As would we all.) And it is precisely that wish to believe that makes it possible for people like John Edwards to do their thing. Did you miss the context? Why do you have a problem with that statement?
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2005 : 18:00:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Oh sure, a ghost hunter may stumble across the evidence. But that evidence won't mean a thing until the skeptics get their hands on it. It will not join the other major discoveries in science until the skeptics fail to tear it to shreds…
I am not just a ghost hunter Kil... my goal is to finish my Bachelors in Psychology... then to branch into Parapsychology...
originally posted by Kil
quote:
You need us.
You are absolutely right... You lead me further and further to the truth of Human Personality and it's Survival of Bodily death... But you need me too or else you would be a bunch of predertimed couch potatoes or computer potatoes.... oh... hmm... anyway... So... Damian is reading An Underground Education... by Richard Zacks... Anyone familiar with it? He is reading the chapter called The Indecent Forgotten Parts of the Bible... This might prove to be a very enjoyable evening.... Get a load of this hilarity:
A Manly Man - A man is sometimes referred to as he "that pisseth against a wall." This is used 5 seperate times in the bible... there is no female equivelent such as she "that splatterath in the dust"
The next enry is Holy Relics: Jesus's Foreskin Who's writing this God or Mel Brooks |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2005 : 18:28:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
then to branch into Parapsychology...
So, professional ghost hunting.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2005 : 20:04:20 [Permalink]
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Oh.... are you trying to make a case for parapsychology as an actual empirical evidence based science?
You have your work cut out for you.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2005 : 21:35:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
what qualifies a mathematician/engineer to speculate about human consciousness? What studies did he publish, and in what journals?
What qualifies anyone Dude? what qualifies or disqualifies you and I to speculate? but in this case I would say a... Mathemetician.... Engineer.. Scientist... helped produce the radio....
Helped produce the radio...
Interesting, I seem to recall you mentioning another engineer/inventor trying to invent a machine with which one could listen/communicate with the dear departed. (was it Bell, Edison, or Franklin? I don't recall)
I was thinking white noise and EVP.
Anyway, the engineer guy you hold in high regard gave me an idea for an analogy for you (or simile or whatever it's called, I could never sort them out).
Two hundred years ago, someone speculated (fantasised) about a box in which you put a letter. You have the box in New York, put the letter in it, and it is supernaturally transported instantly to Los Angeles.
Today we have such devices, sort of. FAX-machine.
The transmission goes through satellite via radio.
In order to realise this magical box, Electricity had already been discovered, and Magnetism had also been discovered. But not the relationship between them. Electricity had to be quantified and measured, instruments had to be developed for measurements.
Magnetism also had to have instruments developed, in order to get quantified and measured. Relationship had to be observed, cause and effect, hypothesis had to be made and tested before a theory could be developed that made it possible to develop an application to use it.
Only after that could electro-magnetic applications like the radio get developed.
So how do this example fit into ghosts or any kind of paranormal activity?
Well, ghosts and stuff are like the fantasy magic box, except we don't know if it will eventually work. The "psychic energy" needed as information carrier or medium in which it is stored or travels through needs to be identified, to start with. Once it can be detected (like electromagnetic waves, electricity, magnetism) it can be quantified. At this point you'll find that pseudo-skeptics like me will agree there really is something to it.
About consciousness:
A sufficiently hard hit to your head will disrupt your neural pathways enough to make you loose consciousness. Thanks to the body's automatic repair system, most of the damage will be repaired, and once most of the repairs are done you get your consciousness back.
My opinion is that consciousness is the result of the neural activity of the brain. External forces which disrupts the physical brain also disrupts consciousness. Drugs that alter the chemical balance in the brain also alter the mind/consciousness. It all makes sense.
The idea that the brain is just a conduit or receiver for an paranormal/extra-natural residing mind/consciousness adds extra variables and assumptions for which we have no evidence.
Occam's Razor say that such explanations should be discarded.
By discarded, I do not mean it shouldn't be looked into. (The American government has, if I'm not mistaken) It's just that since such explanation doesn't add anything useful, I can go about my business disregarding it.
Just like I disregard the relativistic effects of speed as Einstein defined them in the Theory of Relativity when I'm driving my car. Basic Newtonian physics works perfectly fine for this. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 10:28:15 [Permalink]
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Storm
quote:
Have you explored any other possibilities other than what you know?
I think what you mean here is am I willing to explore other possibilities, correct? Obviously I could not have explored other possibilities and still not know about them. Yes I am willing, but I will require the same level of empirical evidence and consistency that I have used to derive my own tentative explanations/definitions.
quote:
But how much do we really know about how the biological world really works?
A great deal, but at the same time a small percentage of the whole. Again I base my conclusions on what we know now and do so tentatively. When new information is discovered that contradicts my conclusions I will change them to fit the data. This seems a safe way to approach topics in general. I can make a tentative conclusion and act on it based on the data at hand, while being open to change when new data comes forth.
Also depending upon 1) how much data we have, 2) how much testing and investigation has been done to date and 3) how well I understand the data dictates with how much confidence I can state my conclusion. For instance with biological evolution, I can say as a matter of fact, 1) we have tons of data in support of it, 2) it has been tested and verified extensively for over 100 years, and 3) I have a very good understanding of it, thus I can state my conclusion on the matter with greater confidence than say I can with neurology.
quote:
Are we done now then with exploration and understanding? or is there more to know, to discover?
Obviously there is a lot to discover and to learn, however the scientific method would be the preferred method of inquiry since it has corrective mechanisms in place to help remove mistaken and false discoveries. Any other mechanism proposed would have to show at least an equal ability for it to be a valid method of inquiry and investigation for me.
quote:
What of the millions of ghostly phenomenon reported each year? How does that fit into your predetermination?
Millions reported each year?? Come on now, please don't overstate your case. You would think that with millions of events reported each year, that I or anyone on this board would have at least a decent chance of being a recipient of such a phenomena.
Finally with such reported phenomena, we are relying on anecdotal evidence and a different mechanism than the scientific mechanism for inquiry. A method that does not appear to have the correcting mechanisms in place for removing mistaken discoveries.
Let me ask you this, if I am to take these reported ghostly phenomena at face value, how do I determine the false from the true? Where do I draw the line within the realm of anecdotal evidence? Do Virgin Mary stains really represent a miracle? What of UFO's and abductions? Monsters? Fairies? Magic Spells? Scientology? Gods? Demons? Homeopathy? Touch Therapy? Magic Charms? Pyramids? Faith Healing?
My problem is that if I accept your ghostly phenomena based on anecdotal evidence, then to be consistent I would also have to accept all of these and a whole myriad of others to be consistent and not hypocritical. In fact I would be forced to accept any phenomena reported credibly by 2 or more witnesses. Not much of a way to decipher fact from fiction if you ask me. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 14:34:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
quote:
By Storm:
I have come to the realization that most of your guys consciousness lies in your ...
By Hawks:
Brains?
By Storm:
no I was thinking more on the line of Asses!!!!
That seems more in line with your line of reasoning, considering that in your first post you said this:
quote:
"The brain is messenger to consciousness", Eccles said.
Let's suppose the brain channels consciousness from our asses. How would you test for this? How would you test for that it comes from somewhere else? |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 17:44:04 [Permalink]
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originally posted by bloody peasant
quote:
Millions reported each year?? Come on now, please don't overstate your case. You would think that with millions of events reported each year, that I or anyone on this board would have at least a decent chance of being a recipient of such a phenomena.
O.k. maybe not millions... but tens of thousands... well bloody peasant have you asked if anyone has been a recipient? I know i have been on numerous occassions... While we know of the "phenomenon" being real... causes are unknown...speculations though are abound...hallucination...fraud...
originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Interesting, I seem to recall you mentioning another engineer/inventor trying to invent a machine with which one could listen/communicate with the dear departed. (was it Bell, Edison, or Franklin? I don't recall)
I was thinking white noise and EVP.
Thomas Edison...
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
The idea that the brain is just a conduit or receiver for an paranormal/extra-natural residing mind/consciousness adds extra variables and assumptions for which we have no evidence.
I disagree with you about the lack of evidence...besides of course the tens of thousands reports each year,, some of these ameteur Ghost Hunters have really picked up on some anomolies.. what is very difficult about the evidence put forward is that we have yet to find a way to predict ghostly phenomenon...have yet to find a way to measure it... |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 17:51:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm:
I disagree with you about the lack of evidence...besides of course the tens of thousands reports each year,, some of these ameteur Ghost Hunters have really picked up on some anomolies.. what is very difficult about the evidence put forward is that we have yet to find a way to predict ghostly phenomenon...have yet to find a way to measure it...
If there is no way to measure it, then there is a lack of evidence (anecdotes are not evidence). |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 17:59:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
I disagree with you about the lack of evidence...besides of course the tens of thousands reports each year,, some of these ameteur Ghost Hunters have really picked up on some anomolies.. what is very difficult about the evidence put forward is that we have yet to find a way to predict ghostly phenomenon...have yet to find a way to measure it...
Storm.... Sometimes you make me want to pull my hair out.
1st, you must realize that anecdotal evidence ("reports" are exactly that, anecdotal) is almost always "reported" by the truly credulous. There are "thousands" of reports of UFOs every year also, does hat suddenly mean that the little green men are real?
2nd, you cannot start with a conclusion and then look for "evidence" that supports it. All of your posts on the topic of ghosts and human consciousness start with a conclusion. What you have is nothing more than a huge case of confirmation bias.
3rd, Many times have I, and others here, tried to get you to actually learn how the scientific method works. It is entirely plausible to formulate and test a hypothesis concerning "ghostly phenomenon". But you are wasting your time as long as you start out with the intent of gathering evidence to "prove" your already formulated conclusions concerning ghosts and human consciousness.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 18:10:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
The idea that the brain is just a conduit or receiver for an paranormal/extra-natural residing mind/consciousness adds extra variables and assumptions for which we have no evidence.
I disagree with you about the lack of evidence...besides of course the tens of thousands reports each year,, some of these ameteur Ghost Hunters have really picked up on some anomolies.. what is very difficult about the evidence put forward is that we have yet to find a way to predict ghostly phenomenon...have yet to find a way to measure it...
How many of those sightings are more than just anecdotal?
Are there recordings of those anomolies that are more than just anecdotal?
So, members of SFN: Have anyone else than Storm experienced true paranormal and/or Supernatural phenomenon?
(I'm not talking about "almost woo-woo stories")
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 18:12:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Actually Dave I spent a good portion of the day reading that thread... but forgive me if I do not undestand everything.... I merely would like to know how predetermination interputs or defines the phenomenon of ghosts...
It doesn't. Whether or not a person's belief in ghosts is determined by their environment or an act of true "free will" is irrelevant to the question of the reality of ghosts. Determinism is a philosophical position which doesn't touch on epistemology at all. If we've got free will or just the illusion thereof doesn't make one bit of difference to whether or not there is evidence suggesting that the "phenomenon of ghosts" is caused by an as-yet-unknown physics.quote:
Well Dave many people have said many things pertaining to ghostly phenomenon for and against it... What you mean is what you have said about the existence or should I say the non existence of the phenomenon...
Putting words in my mouth is extremely rude.quote:
o.k.o.k. so I switch conclusion to speculation... you going to take my thoughts, debates, seriously now? Doubt it?
Well, there's the point of this forum to take into account. If you are just interested in speculating about ghosts, just say so, and feel free. It would be really f-ing cool if a person's consciousness didn't just end at death. Such a thing raises all sorts of really nifty possibilites as a consequence.
But, that's as far as that goes. We're a skeptic's forum, and one of the things we try to promote is the idea that there are ways to examine "truth claims" about such speculative thoughts, and figure out if they warrant further serious investigation.
Perhaps it's important to note, Storm, that I used to be a "believer" in many things "woo-woo." I now consider the time and effort I spent actively engaged in "research" about such things to have been wasted, except for a handful of friendships I made. For example, when I think about the money I spent on books about the supernatural and occult, and how much it'd be worth now even just sitting in a passbook savings account for 20-something years, I come close to tears.
I regret not using that time and my resources in a more constructive manner. I could have been working to better the world around me, instead of engaging in adolescent masturbatory fantasies about ESP, telekinesis and projection-of-consciousness.
I'm trying to make up for that, here. It's one of the reasons this forum exists: there are better things to do with one's life than chasing down phantasms for which there is absolutely no hard evidence.quote:
Just what I expected you to .... nothing...
That's not true. But more to the point, if you were to make a compelling suggestion about what I might find interesting about that lengthy piece, I might go back to it. As it is, I've got better things to do with my time.quote:
actually Myers is written and mentioned extensivelly... Did you look at where it said the Society for Psychical Reaearch?
Actually, Myers is mentioned in somewhat less than half of the article. Surely better and more detailed histories about Myers and/or the SPR exist?quote:
I wouldn't say I learned wrong... just different...
No, the word "science" has a specific meaning in the context of the previous discussion. If one thinks - as you said, but later corrected - that science begins with conclusions, one has learned a seriously flawed definition of "science."quote:
but just as Kil said not every idea has equal value.. yours as well as mine...
And as mentioned above, in different words, one of the goals of this forum is to learn what those values are, and follow the highly-valued ideas where they might take us. Speculative stuff often gets left in the dust on purpose, as it's not just of low value, it's not just cheap, it's free. Billions of speculations are offered every day around the world. A small percentage of one percent of them might lead to a real discovery. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 18:13:55 [Permalink]
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originally posted by wreck
quote:
If there is no way to measure it, then there is a lack of evidence (anecdotes are not evidence).
What would constitute as evidence? Pictures.... have numerous ones...recorded voices.... have that...collective witnesses.. measurement? prediction? that has yet to be discovered...
but let us Specualte at the possibilities of what could be the cause of the phenomenon?
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
The idea that the brain is just a conduit or receiver for an paranormal/extra-natural residing mind/consciousness adds extra variables and assumptions for which we have no evidence.
How do consciousness and ghostly phenomenon tie in...Is ghostly phenmenon disentigrating human personality as Tyrell suggested... or actual communications from the deceased as the Spiritualist will tell you...
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2005 : 18:32:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm:
originally posted by wreck
quote:
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If there is no way to measure it, then there is a lack of evidence (anecdotes are not evidence).
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What would constitute as evidence? Pictures.... have numerous ones...recorded voices.... have that...collective witnesses.. measurement? prediction? that has yet to be discovered...
but let us Specualte at the possibilities of what could be the cause of the phenomenon?
Pictures would be evidence. Pictures with random light spots or smudges are not particularly good evidence, however, as there are plenty of natural explanations for them. You would need a picture that is not faked, and couldn't be explained by natural, known processes.
Same with recorded voices. The evidence would have to be clear and unambiguous, and all natural sources need to be ruled out. The best way to do this is with a well designed, controlled experiment.
Witnesses? Unreliable. Weak evidence.
Measurement and the measured fulfillment of a prediction based on a coherent theory would be good evidence. But as you admit, we don't have that yet.
We could speculate forever on the cause of the "phenomena" that some believe is caused by ghosts. Could be ghosts. Could be aliens from another dimension. Could be invisible pink dragons having a laugh at your expense. Could be god farting. Could be natural phenomena being misinterpreted. Could be a lot of things. We need some good solid unambiguous evidence to sort it out. Until such is offerred, the tentative conclusion that makes the most sense is that natural phenomena are being misinterpreted. |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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