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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 07/01/2005 : 23:01:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
It might make more sense to you if you reword premise 2 as "God wants people to accept Him, and those who reject Him are sent to hell." Hence, the new conclusion would be "No one ever goes to hell unless they freely choose to reject God."
When someone challenges the validity of your comments you want to change the definitions or the rules so the discussion somehow continues to support your preexisting beliefs. It might make more sense to you if you'd understand that most people here consider applying critical thinking, science, and logic as the best methods for evaluating all claims of fact. You haven't provided an iota of any of the above to support your fantasies, yet you still discuss your own interpretation of this myth as if it were some singular inarguable truth.
quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Spiritual suicide is much more common than physical suicide.
I'm willing to bet we can't find a speck of data as evidence to substantiate this claim. This is just another statement drawn from your fantasy to support your sense of superiority.
quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Also, when you think about alcoholics, AIDS, war, you will begin to see that much of humanity freely chooses to be destroyed, mainly because they ignore the consequences of their actions.
This reinforces the idea that christians believe their god is a wicked evil being who will wreak tortuous vengeance on those who don't succumb to his will. I don't believe it is intelligent or even sane to worship such a creature. By expressing this particular attitude you place yourself solidly in the company of Adolph Hitler, the witch hunters, the Spanish inquisitors, the prohibitionists, George W. Bush and his followers, and multitudes of others who dangerously believe they are morally superior.
I have a lot of sympathy for people like you who are so dependent, so incapable of making decisions for yourself, incapable of being responsible for yourself or managing your own life without so desperately clinging to this irrational myth. To god be the glory of the good, but all the terrible things are the fault of men. Oh come on, what a bunch of crap. 
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| Edited by - GeeMack on 07/01/2005 23:02:54 |
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Boron10
Religion Moderator
USA
1266 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2005 : 23:30:29 [Permalink]
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| I notice here that many people seem to think omnipotence is a necessary property of any god. Clearly this cannot be the case, since there have been many pantheons with gods who were merely more powerful than normal humans. That is the only qualifier. Many christians (especially within the last couple hundred years) have decided their god is omnipotent and omniscient; however, that is a very new concept and is by no means a requirement. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2005 : 07:26:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Many christians (especially within the last couple hundred years) have decided their god is omnipotent and omniscient; however, that is a very new concept and is by no means a requirement.
We aren't talking about Thor or Athena.
We are talking about the christian god, and what it's beievers believe it to be.
And my point, all along, has been that you can't have an omnipotent god AND free will at the same time. They are mutually exclusive.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/02/2005 : 17:51:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Matt:quote:
Do you believe then, that God was unsure whether or not any individuals would end up in hell when He created humanity?
Yes.
Of course this means either that God is unable to trancend time, or that He chooses to remain in ignorance of the consequenses of His actions.
Also, it means Hippyis once again changing his beliefs to fit what he prefers vs. what the bible actually says. Nothing in the bible suggests that god does not know each one of our fates. It says in fact that he knew us before we were even born, obviously a demonstration of precognition of our lives.
Hippy doesn't believe it because he doesn't like the implications, not because anything indicates otherwise.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2005 : 07:05:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Also, when you think about alcoholics, AIDS, war, you will begin to see that much of humanity freely chooses to be destroyed, mainly because they ignore the consequences of their actions.
It is not of their choosing, because they are ignorant of consequences or have no say about it, rather than choosing to ignore the consequences of their actions. This belief of yours is appalling, and in my eyes morally bankrupt.
Your president is sendng soldiers to an illegal war, and you are condemning all soldiers for participating in it. Many of them being led there under false pretences, lied to by your president. What you are saying is that being lied to, and believeing that lie, is an act of wilfully ignoring God's command even if you don't know better.
What happened to you H4C? A couple of months ago you showed promise of critical thinkning and now suddenly you have reverted to a bigoted asshole.  |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2005 : 07:49:03 [Permalink]
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| Playin' Devil's advocate, I'd rather say not all people with AIDS have/had any choice in it; but what about the person that is fully aware of the threat and yet is promiscuous and doesn't wear protection anyway? This one, in my mind, is choosing to ignore the threat. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2005 : 11:17:18 [Permalink]
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Hippy, I see that you're taking a lot of flak for this statement,quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Also, when you think about alcoholics, AIDS, war, you will begin to see that much of humanity freely chooses to be destroyed, mainly because they ignore the consequences of their actions.
I do think this statement is misguided for a couple of reasons.
First, as I already mentioned the primary purpose of the activities that you mentioned is not self-destruction.
To illustrate the point, suppose that you, Hippy, were given a choice to renouce Jesus, or to die a gruesome, painful death. In this situation if you were to choose death it would be an extreme misrepresentation to say that you committed suicide.
Obviously the primary purpose of your decision would not be self-destruction. The primary purpose of your decision would be to maintain your belief in Jesus.
The second reason that I think your statement is misguided is that it does bear a strong resembelence to certain bigoted attitudes often expressed by many of the so called 'evangelical leaders' of the Christian Church.
I don't beleive that you share these attitudes. Throughout your posting history here you have been reasonable, honest and intelligent. On occasion you have even admitted mistakes you have made. With this in mind, it seems likely to me that your statement was purely the result of a misunderstanding of what a 'free choice' actually is.
I hope that you will continue to post, both in this thread, and on this forum, I always find your posts interesting and thought provoking.
Best wishes. |
| Edited by - dv82matt on 07/03/2005 13:28:46 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2005 : 11:31:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Also, when you think about alcoholics, AIDS, war, you will begin to see that much of humanity freely chooses to be destroyed, mainly because they ignore the consequences of their actions.
The world is full of evils. Some can be avoided, some cannot. Some people engage in risky behaviors. However, it seems that you, Hippy, must believe that most people "have it coming," as you know your god is a merciful and just god and would not punish people unfairly. You must reconcile human suffering with your faith, and so choose to believe that there is a cosmic justice operating just under the surface of things.
I'm sure if pushed you would admit that the cause of peoples' suffering isn't always so readily explained by peoples' actions. Sure, smokers get cancer, but so do health nuts. That, I'm sure, you'd chalk up to our limited human understanding of god's plan. It seems you believe that the few cases you list are enough for you to prove a pattern and, like any blind follower, I'll bet you'll ignore contradicting examples with the claim that we simply do not know enough to understand why god chose to burden a particular person with whatever personal affliction.
This thinking is narrow-minded and wrong--but it allows you to cling to your faith. Such selective thinking is one reason why religion is so distasteful to me.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/04/2005 11:32:20 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2005 : 12:00:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
That, I'm sure, you'd chalk up to our limited human understanding of god's plan.
God-of-the-Gaps works in so many scenarios... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/05/2005 : 22:36:23 [Permalink]
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I've reworded your statement to reflect what I think you mean.quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
Playin' Devil's advocate, I'd rather say [no one] with AIDS [has] any choice in it; but what about the person that is fully aware of the threat and yet is promiscuous and doesn't wear protection anyway? This one, in my mind, is choosing to ignore the threat.
I agree with you. This person is choosing to ignore, or willing to accept, the threat of AIDS. Furthermore I think most people would agree that this type of behaviour is self-destructive.
However the issue here isn't really whether or not people willingly engage in self-destructive behaviour, we know people often do. Rather it's the assumption, that because some people do engage in self-destructive behaviour (for whatever reason), that they are freely choosing to be destroyed. This assumption is false, unless the reason that they are engaging in self-destructive behaviour to begin with, is specifically because it is self-destructive.
To take a trivial example:
Crossing the street carries with it a small inherent risk of being hit by a vehicle. Most people who cross the street are aware of the risk, take certain commonsense measures to reduce the risk as much as is practical (such as checking for traffic), and are willing to accept the remaining risk. Obviously such people are not choosing to be run over by a vehicle, unless the primary reason that they are crossing the street in the first place, is to increase their odds of being hit.
Same scenario, but now let's imagine a person who (for whatever reason), refuses to check for traffic before crossing the street.
Is this person choosing to ignore or accept the increased risk of being hit by a car? Of course.
But is this person actually choosing to be hit by a car? Not unless the reason that they refuse to check for traffic is specifically to increase their chances of being hit.
I hope that makes sense. |
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hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2005 : 16:46:31 [Permalink]
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First I'll address this:
quote:
Also, when you think about alcoholics, AIDS, war, you will begin to see that much of humanity freely chooses to be destroyed, mainly because they ignore the consequences of their actions.
Will everyone please note that I was speaking in general terms, much of humanity, mainly because they ignore. While it may have been more correct to say "much of humanity freely chooses actions which lead to their destruction", my original statement holds true for many people. Do you honestly think that most alcoholics don't know that they're running the risk of death by cirrhosis? That most promiscuous people don't know that they're running the risk of STDs? That most soldiers don't know that they're putting themselves in harms way? And let me make it clear that I don't hate these people. I pity them that they deceive themselves to the point where they think that they can't help themselves. I pray for those in bondage, that they may receive truth and act upon it when it is given to them.
Dave:
quote:
The idea that the things you used as examples are avoidable simply through paying attention to possible consequences is... to be blunt... stupid.
Of course it is, that's why I said mainly because they ignore. After acknowledging the risks, the next step is to act on that knowledge.
Matt:
quote:
I don't agree that these are examples of spiritual or physical suicide. The primary purpose of these activities is not self-destruction.
To illustrate the point, suppose that you, Hippy, were given a choice to renouce Jesus, or to die a gruesome, painful death. In this situation if you were to choose death it would be an extreme misrepresentation to say that you committed suicide.
The dictionary defines suicide as "The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself." It does not delineate between self-sacrifice and selfishness. I myself would not consider martyrdom or any other self-sacrificial act to be suicide because it is done for unselfish purposes. But continuing to drink alcohol to excess even when you know it's bad for you is selfish, and hence, according to my thinking, suicide. And if I knew of someone who refused to look at a street before crossing it, my first thought would be that they were suicidal.
Mabuse:
quote:
It is not of their choosing, because they are ignorant of consequences or have no say about it, rather than choosing to ignore the consequences of their actions.
For some people this is true, and I wasn't talking about those people. I don't blame people who are born with fetal alcohol syndrome, or who are born with AIDS, or who are born in a war zone.
quote:
Your president is sendng soldiers to an illegal war, and you are condemning all soldiers for participating in it.
I'm not blaming soldiers for fighting in an illegal war, I'm blaming soldiers for fighting in any war. Of course, much of humanity is indoctrinated in this matters from birth, and they may receive grace because they honestly thought that they were doing the right thing.
quote:
What happened to you H4C? A couple of months ago you showed promise of critical thinkning and now suddenly you have reverted to a bigoted asshole.
A couple of months ago we were discussing matters of science, now we're discussing matters of faith. Science has defined, objective rules that are recognized worldwide. Faith doesn't.
Humbert:
quote:
You must reconcile human suffering with your faith, and so choose to believe that there is a cosmic justice operating just under the surface of things.
No, actually I believe that most of human suffering is caused by fellow humans.
Okay, back to alleged contradiction at hand:
Matt:
quote:
...or that He chooses to remain in ignorance of the consequenses of His actions.
I suppose that in an absolute sense this is true, your point?
quote:
To be clear then, the statement, "God doesn't want people to go to hell." is false, but the statement, "God doesn't want people to go to hell, unless they reject Him." is true.
Are we in agreement?
Yes.
quote:
You said:
One problem with this explanation is this, suppose someone chooses the wrong religion or is not convinced that God exists. Is God then forced to send that person to hell?
I said:
The answer in short is 'no'.
You said:
Then He must want to send them to hell.
Yes, but this was not always the case with each individual.
quote:
To me the gist of the passage is that, God made everything for His own purposes, even the wicked, who He created for destruction.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that those who are now wicked had no choice but to be wicked.
quote:
The point is that the passage doesn't make sense unless it is nesseccary, and it is only nesseccary to harden their hearts if their hearts aren't hardened already.
Did you read the rest of my post? I'll restate it:
quote:
The Bible doesn't say that it is nesseccary. Yahweh has His reasons for doing what He does, sometimes he tells us what they are, like here:
Romans 11:30-31 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
GeeMack:
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2005 : 17:18:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
The dictionary defines suicide as "The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself." It does not delineate between self-sacrifice and selfishness. I myself would not consider martyrdom or any other self-sacrificial act to be suicide because it is done for unselfish purposes. But continuing to drink alcohol to excess even when you know it's bad for you is selfish, and hence, according to my thinking, suicide.
Drinking is not "selfish" unless it affects someone else. It isn't suicide unless you intend to kill yourself with drink. Simply ignoring possible negative consequences does not fit the definition, or else breathing could be considered a form of suicide.
quote:
Humbert:
quote:
You must reconcile human suffering with your faith, and so choose to believe that there is a cosmic justice operating just under the surface of things.
No, actually I believe that most of human suffering is caused by fellow humans.
Right. That was my point. You see suffering as a direct result of abusing free will and disobeying god's edicts. You conveniently ignore the preponderance of cases that run contrary to your beliefs.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2005 : 18:04:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
quote:
Mabuse:
It is not of their choosing, because they are ignorant of consequences or have no say about it, rather than choosing to ignore the consequences of their actions.
For some people this is true, and I wasn't talking about those people. I don't blame people who are born with fetal alcohol syndrome, or who are born with AIDS, or who are born in a war zone.
In Africa, for people with AIDS it is true. And they make out a majority of AIDS-infected in Africa. If they are not a global majority already, they soon will be. They are heterosexual, uneducated people (both man and women) who are totally ignorant of AIDS, not by choice but because they have never been told about it.
Actually, many of them are even told they can be cured from AIDS by having sex with a virgin (very young women, girls even). And I hope you are knowledgable enough about AIDS to realize in which direction that action will change the chance of further speading of HIV.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2005 : 21:14:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Will everyone please note that I was speaking in general terms...
Noted.quote:
Matt:
quote:
I don't agree that these are examples of spiritual or physical suicide. The primary purpose of these activities is not self-destruction.
To illustrate the point, suppose that you, Hippy, were given a choice to renouce Jesus, or to die a gruesome, painful death. In this situation if you were to choose death it would be an extreme misrepresentation to say that you committed suicide.
The dictionary defines suicide as "The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself." It does not delineate between self-sacrifice and selfishness. I myself would not consider martyrdom or any other self-sacrificial act to be suicide because it is done for unselfish purposes. But continuing to drink alcohol to excess even when you know it's bad for you is selfish, and hence, according to my thinking, suicide. And if I knew of someone who refused to look at a street before crossing it, my first thought would be that they were suicidal.
I agree with the dictionary definition you quoted. Do you?quote:
quote:
...or that He chooses to remain in ignorance of the consequenses of His actions.
I suppose that in an absolute sense this is true, your point?
I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. What do you mean by "in an absolute sense"?quote:
quote:
To be clear then, the statement, "God doesn't want people to go to hell." is false, but the statement, "God doesn't want people to go to hell, unless they reject Him." is true.
Are we in agreement?
Yes.
Cool.quote:
quote:
You said:
One problem with this explanation is this, suppose someone chooses the wrong religion or is not convinced that God exists. Is God then forced to send that person to hell?
I said:
The answer in short is 'no'.
You said:
Then He must want to send them to hell.
Yes, but this was not always the case with each individual.
Right. It is only the case with the individuals who choose the wrong religion or are not convinced that God exists.quote:
quote:
To me the gist of the passage is that, God made everything for His own purposes, even the wicked, who He created for destruction.
Yes, but that doesn't mean that those who are now wicked had no choice but to be wicked.
True, the verse doesn't address that particular question.quote:
quote:
The point is that the passage doesn't make sense unless it is nesseccary, and it is only nesseccary to harden their hearts if their hearts aren't hardened already.
Did you read the rest of my post? I'll restate it:
I did read it, and on reading it again I still don't understand your point. Perhaps you could restate it in different words. Obviously I'm having trouble understanding. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/06/2005 : 22:56:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
I never said that Yahweh didn't want to send some people to hell. My position is and has been that when people are born Yahweh wants to save them but if they reject them then eventually He'll want to send them to hell.
With an omniscient god there is no "eventually." He knows before a person is even born everything that person will ever do. Why do you choose to reject this conclusion? God's omniscience is consistent with scripture. Doubting it is not.
And of course, belief in a god who does his upmost to resemble non-existence is a pretty tall order. Why would he be so harsh on those who simply possess a rational mind?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/06/2005 23:00:47 |
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