|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 07/18/2005 : 20:55:50 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Where is your "compelling evidence" that the unsaid phrase "at that time" was actually intended in that passage?
Nice catch, H! Personally, I'd forgotten all about those particular rules for this thread (and for that, I apologize to Hippy). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
 |
|
|
dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/18/2005 : 22:28:50 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
Where is your "compelling evidence" that the unsaid phrase "at that time" was actually intended in that passage?
Nice catch, H!
Whoops! I think you mean, "Nice catch Matt!"
Gotta give Humbert credit for making it unmistakable though. |
|
|
|
Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 05:02:23 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Dude, Dave, Mab, maybe we can discuss this in a later topic.
Hippy
Fair enough. It's way off topic. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
|
|
|
hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 11:26:02 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Nonetheless God's ignorance of precisely which individuals are dammed does nothing to free Him from moral responsibility. No matter how you cut it, if God knew that His actions would likely lead to even one individual spending an eternity in Hell, then His actions are morally reprehensible.
Like I've said, I don't believe in Hell as never-ending-concious-torment. I believe that the Bible teaches that Hell is a temporary event which destroys the wicked, after which the wicked are annihilated; i.e., they cease to exist. I could get into an explanation, but that's another topic.
quote:
Okay, but I think that "at that time" would qualify as an unsaid statement.
Right. The reason why I said that is 1) because Jesus didn't indicate that this heardening of the heart would last throughout their lives. 2) In Exodus chapters 7 and 8 we see the first few plagues of Egypt, and sometimes it says that Yahweh hardened Pharoah's heart, and sometimes it says that Pharoah hardened his own heart; indicating that when it says that Yahweh hardens someone's it is not neccessarily a permanent condition. 3) Beleiving in the unsaid statement that the people that Jesus was talking about had their hearts permanently hardened goes against the whole idea of mercy and forgiveness which is expressed throughout the Bible.
quote:
Maybe, but as you've noted, the Bible doesn't specifically say. What I'm trying to point out is that many of your beliefs are not, in fact, based on the Bible, but instead are based on what you'd like to believe.
I only do that when the Bible is unclear on a subject.
quote:
Suppose Billy is at a point in his life ...
I'm sure you would agree that this is heartless. When you wrote this, "Yahweh may harden someones heart to...show them what happens to people who reject Him..." I understood you to mean something similar to the above scenario.
My initial response would be that this scenario would be heartless, at least towards Billy. But I don't find a scenario like this in the Bible, where someone was truly sorry and yet not allowed to repent and then they died. For example, Paul writes:
1 Timothy 1:19-20 "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20) Of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."
There wouldn't be much point in teaching them not to blaspheme if they don't have a chance at heaven anyway.
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
|
|
|
dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 13:41:32 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christquote:
Nonetheless God's ignorance of precisely which individuals are dammed does nothing to free Him from moral responsibility. No matter how you cut it, if God knew that His actions would likely lead to even one individual spending an eternity in Hell, then His actions are morally reprehensible.
Like I've said, I don't believe in Hell as never-ending-concious-torment. I believe that the Bible teaches that Hell is a temporary event which destroys the wicked, after which the wicked are annihilated; i.e., they cease to exist. I could get into an explanation, but that's another topic.
Come on Hippy, unless you're going to claim that Hell is not a bad thing, then all you're really doing here is quibbling about precisily how evil God is.
Thanks for explaining your understanding of Hell though.quote:
quote:
Okay, but I think that "at that time" would qualify as an unsaid statement.
Right. The reason why I said that is 1) because Jesus didn't indicate that this heardening of the heart would last throughout their lives.
The verse in question (John 12:40) doesn't mention any kind of a time frame. If the writer of the passage did intend the meaning you are proposing then why didn't he add the words 'at that time' to the end of the passage? We aren't free to just add our own meanings or qualifications to Bible passages.quote:
2) In Exodus chapters 7 and 8 we see the first few plagues of Egypt, and sometimes it says that Yahweh hardened Pharoah's heart, and sometimes it says that Pharoah hardened his own heart; indicating that when it says that Yahweh hardens someone's it is not neccessarily a permanent condition.
This is an entirely different scenario. I don't see how you could possibly use this as a justification of your reasoning. Pharoah's heart was hardened not to prevent him from accepting God, but to prevent him from freeing the Israelites at a particular moment in time.quote:
3) Beleiving in the unsaid statement that the people that Jesus was talking about had their hearts permanently hardened goes against the whole idea of mercy and forgiveness which is expressed throughout the Bible.
Conversly believing as you do goes against the whole idea of wrath and judgement which is expressed throughout the Bible.quote:
quote:
Maybe, but as you've noted, the Bible doesn't specifically say. What I'm trying to point out is that many of your beliefs are not, in fact, based on the Bible, but instead are based on what you'd like to believe.
I only do that when the Bible is unclear on a subject.
The Bible is unclear on a great many subjects.quote:
My initial response would be that this scenario would be heartless, at least towards Billy. But I don't find a scenario like this in the Bible, where someone was truly sorry and yet not allowed to repent and then they died.
Well there's Judas. But I expect you would make him an exception.quote:
For example, Paul writes:
1 Timothy 1:19-20 "Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20) Of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."
There wouldn't be much point in teaching them not to blaspheme if they don't have a chance at heaven anyway.
Um... how do you know this? Are you saying that you can't think of a reason to teach people not to blaspheme if they don't have a chance at heaven? This strikes me as an argument from personal incredulity.
Also being 'delivered unto Satan' sounds pretty final to me. |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 17:57:14 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
Whoops! I think you mean, "Nice catch Matt!"
Gotta give Humbert credit for making it unmistakable though.
Ah, yes. Indeed, it was the "unmistakable" part that your post was missing, Matt.  |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 19:13:30 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by dv82matt
Whoops! I think you mean, "Nice catch Matt!"
Gotta give Humbert credit for making it unmistakable though.
Ah, yes. Indeed, it was the "unmistakable" part that your post was missing, Matt.
To be perfectly fair, Matt definitely caught it first. However, it wasn't until I went back and re-read the list of rules (intending to make my own post) did I actually realize he had caught it, and that his italicized "unsaid statement" was in reference to rule #3. So, yeah, if I played any role at all it was only to try to clarify (or maybe stress) Matt's point.
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/19/2005 20:54:32 |
|
|
|
dv82matt
SFN Regular
760 Posts |
Posted - 07/19/2005 : 20:21:34 [Permalink]
|
Thanks H.
Dave, you're right I should have made it explicit. The reason that I didn't is that I had previously made reference to unsaid statments in relation to rule #3.
However it was several pages (and weeks) ago, so I shouldn't have assumed it would readily come to mind. |
|
|
|
H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2005 : 00:55:24 [Permalink]
|
So, ok, back to contradictions. I'm generally not up on my bible verses, but I did find this site to offer a few good ones. ( I highly recommend his Atheist Debater's Page in which he responds to common Christian arguments.)
Anyway, here are a few choice contradictions he points out:
quote:
Does God tempt people?
* James 1:13 "Let no man say I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
VS.
* Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."
quote:
Are we all sinners?
* Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
* Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
* Psalm 14:3 "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."
VS.
* Job 1:1 "There was a man . . . who name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright."
* Genesis 7:1 "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."
* Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
quote:
Jesus stated that he was the only person to ascend up into heaven, thereby denying all the other biblical ascentions.
* "No man hath ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of Man." -- John 3:13
VS.
* 2 Kings 2:11 "And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Eli'jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
* Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him."
* 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 "I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know that this man was caught up into Paradise-- and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter."
|
"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 07/22/2005 00:57:28 |
|
|
|
pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 07/22/2005 : 05:18:34 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
So, ok, back to contradictions. I'm generally not up on my bible verses, but I did find this site to offer a few good ones. ( I highly recommend his Atheist Debater's Page in which he responds to common Christian arguments.)
Interesting site, but he seems to mention Thomas Jefferson, Albert Eistien, and other historical people a lot to prove his point...smacks of Argument from Authoritah. He doesn't need to do that to prove his points. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
|
|
|
|
hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 12:55:07 [Permalink]
|
Matt:
quote:
Come on Hippy, unless you're going to claim that Hell is not a bad thing, then all you're really doing here is quibbling about precisily how evil God is.
I don't think that God is evil because he destroys wicked people. That's like saying that parents are wicked because they know, before they have children, that there's a possibility that one of them might grow up to be a murderer and have to be executed.
quote:
The verse in question (John 12:40) doesn't mention any kind of a time frame. If the writer of the passage did intend the meaning you are proposing then why didn't he add the words 'at that time' to the end of the passage?
Why didn't he add the words 'for all time'? Because the verse doesn't mention a time frame, we are free to look at other verses and see what insight they have on the subject.
But while we're on the subject, I recently had a new thought. Why should 'hardening the heart' neccessarily include removal of free will? After all, the Bible talks about people hardening their own heart, and I doubt that it means that people caused themselves to stop having free will. It seems more like this to me: Yahweh creates people with different mindsets, different strengths and weaknesses. Some people are smart but proud, some are strong but lazy, some have the means to perform charity but are hard-hearted and don't do it. So when the Bible says that Yahweh hardens someones heart, that may simply mean that he changed someone's natural attitude so that their flesh rebelled against the idea of serving Him in some particular way. But that does not neccessarily mean that he has denied them free will.
quote:
quote:
My initial response would be that this scenario would be heartless, at least towards Billy. But I don't find a scenario like this in the Bible, where someone was truly sorry and yet not allowed to repent and then they died.
Well there's Judas. But I expect you would make him an exception.
Actually, the Bible said that Judas repented:
Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
And even Peter refrains from saying that Judas went to hell:
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
The real question that must be asked is: is there a reasonable explanation of how these verses fit together:
Jn.12:40 "He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them."
Rom.9:18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."
2 Th.2:11-12 "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned."
1 Tim.2:3-4 "God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved."
2 Pet.3:9 "The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
Here then are my points for saying that they do not conflict:
1) There are people on this earth who are damned, i.e., on the path to hell. That doesn't mean that they can't be saved, i.e., put onto the path to heaven.
2) None of these verses indicate that Yahweh wants people to burn in hell regardless of their actions, nor do they explicitly say that Yahweh denies them free will.
Humbert:
quote:
Does God tempt people?
* James 1:13 "Let no man say I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
VS.
* Genesis 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."
I wouldn't translate the Genesis verse like that. Both the Hebrew and the Greek the words translated "tempt" (naw-saw' and pi-rad'-zo)have a broader meaning than "to entice to sin". They actually mean "test".
For instance, in this verse naw-saw is translated 'prove':
Exd 15:25 And he cried unto the LORD; and the LORD shewed him a tree, which when he had cast into the waters, the waters were made sweet: there he made for them a statute and an ordinance, and there he proved them, 26) And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.
And here pi-rad'-zo is the word translated "examine" in this verse:
2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
These obviously aren't instances of enticement to sin, and neither is the case with Abraham.
quote:
Are we all sinners?
* Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
* Romans 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one."
* Psalm 14:3 "There is none that doeth good, no, not one."
VS.
* Job 1:1 "There was a man . . . who name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright."
* Genesis 7:1 "And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."
* Luke 1:6 "And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless."
All of us have been sinners, but some people have been redeemed and have stopped sinning. It's important to note that the passage in Romans is quoting from the Psalms 14 passage, which is poetical. Furthermore, it seems to me that both passages are speaking about the state of mankind without Yahweh. It is true that men will only become righteous through Yahweh's help, and I think that is sense in which it is to be understood, especially since the passage is found in poetry.
quote:
Jesus stated that he was the only person to ascend up into heaven, thereby denying all the other biblical ascentions.
* "No man hath ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of Man." -- John 3:13
VS.
* 2 Kings 2:11 "And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Eli'jah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
* Hebrews 11:5 "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 13:25:37 [Permalink]
|
quote:
So when the Bible says that Yahweh hardens someones heart, that may simply mean that he changed someone's natural attitude so that their flesh rebelled against the idea of serving Him in some particular way. But that does not neccessarily mean that he has denied them free will.
Wow.
That is a great example of just how deluded "true believers" can become. Their god makes a choice for a person (or changes them so they will behave in a specific way, as desired by their god), and they can come to the conclusion that their god didn't take free will away from that person. Un-fucking-real.
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 13:34:14 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Actually, the Bible said that Judas repented:
Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
And even Peter refrains from saying that Judas went to hell:
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Interesting.
What's your take, Hippy, on the idea promoted by many conservative Christians that no person who hadn't accepted Jesus as their own personal saviour, due to His sacrifice and resurrection, can possibly be saved, including Noah, Moses, Ruth, extra-terrestrials, Native Americans prior to 1492, etc.? Technically speaking, Judas had no idea that Christ rose from the dead before he (Judas) died, so by the above reasoning, it is not possible that Judas was saved, whether he was repentant or not.
I mean, is it not the case that Jesus' coming back to life is central to Christian faith? If not, why doesn't the Bible end with a nifty, Hollywood-style rescue and Jesus dying of old age?
Just wondering, if a little tongue-in-cheekly. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 13:35:47 [Permalink]
|
| But, Hippy, wasn't there something about Enoch becoming an angel? If he did ascend to heaven and he did become an angel... then Jesus wasn't the only. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
|
hippy4christ
Skeptic Friend
193 Posts |
Posted - 07/25/2005 : 15:17:13 [Permalink]
|
Dude:
When the Bible says that Pharoah hardened his heart, do you think that means that Pharoah somehow stripped himself of free will?
Dave:
quote:
What's your take, Hippy, on the idea promoted by many conservative Christians that no person who hadn't accepted Jesus as their own personal saviour, due to His sacrifice and resurrection, can possibly be saved,
I disagree with it. I think that those who did not have a relationship with Jesus (or Yahweh, for those in the pre-Christian era) but weren't really wicked will get another chance at salvation in the Millenial Reign which is to take place when Jesus comes back.
Siberia:
quote:
But, Hippy, wasn't there something about Enoch becoming an angel?
I've never heard anything like that. Even if he did, I suppose that he could travel around Paradise and earth.
Hippy |
Faith is believing what you are told, whether it's by a priest or a scientist. A person's scientific beliefs are ones based on personal observation and experimentation.
Lists of Logical Fallacies |
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
