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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 03:44:38
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Am I the only one who is skeptical of this? quote:
NEW YORK - Newsweek magazine, under fire for publishing a story that led to deadly protests in Afghanistan, said Monday it was retracting its report that a military probe had found evidence of desecration of the Quran by U.S. interrogators at Guantanamo Bay. Earlier Monday, Bush administration officials had brushed off an apology that Newsweek's editor Mark Whitaker had made in an editor's note and criticized the magazine's handling of the story.
Protests broke out across much of the Muslim world last week after Newsweek reported that U.S. investigators found evidence that interrogators had flushed a copy of Muslim's holy book down a toilet in an attempt to rattle detainees. The violence left about 15 dead and scores injured in Afghanistan.
"It's appalling that this story got out there," Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said as she traveled home from Iraq.
I think that this went down pretty much as the orginal article described because it's exactly the sort of thing imbecils of a certain mindset would do. I further think that the follow-up retraction, that few if any Muslims actually believe, came on orders from the administration. And one notes that that Rice bemoaned the story getting out rather than the subject itself, giving the lie official status.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 04:05:01 [Permalink]
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Definitely. I also find it very interesting how the muslim clerics and other "holy men" are using this to whip up the faithful. I think this a great example of how religious fervor is being used to manipulate and control. |
by Filthy The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 04:36:52 [Permalink]
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Yes I agree, the entire Muslim community does as well, the retraction is seen as pressure by the admin to cover it up. Karzai and Musharef are in trouble over this as well. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 05:17:10 [Permalink]
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*sniffs the air*
Something smells.
Smells kinda like the CBS/Dan Rather fake memo set up.
Wouldn't surprise me if Karl Rove cooked the whole thing up and fed Newsweek a flimsy story. Gotta undermine the credibility of any media source that doesn't march lock-step with the right-wing propaganda machine.
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 05:34:05 [Permalink]
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Let's see there are patterns of wide-spread abuse from Iraq to Afghanistan, to Gitmo, to a myriad of other 3rd world countries where the U.S. is shipping detainees for "interrogation".
There's a history of all kinds of Islamic "taboo" techniques, from "homosexual" pyramids to women rubbing on them, to porn, heavy metal, and to putting panties on their heads.
Actually flushing the Koran down the toilet seems mild compared to these other techniques, so I am pretty sure that the some sort of holy book desecration has happened by U.S. interrogators. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 05:58:34 [Permalink]
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So muslims are upset that an American might have destroyed his own copy of a book... Did it in anyway affect any of the other copies available?
Talk about screwed up value system. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly" -- Terry Jones |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 06:01:54 [Permalink]
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Some people killed some other people because somebody thousands of miles away destroyed a book and a "news" magazine apologizes because they did a responsible job of reporting what someone in the military told them. |
I know the rent is in arrears The dog has not been fed in years It's even worse than it appears But it's alright- Jerry Garcia Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 07:01:32 [Permalink]
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At this point, it really doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference. The Muslim fundies have what they want; another reason hate Americans and American-style Christianity, and concievably to mount attacks here and abroad. quote: Muslims in Afghanistan were skeptical yesterday about the retraction. “We will not be deceived by this,” Islamic cleric Mulla Sadullah Abu Aman said in the northern Afghan province of Badakhshan. “This is a decision by America to save itself. It comes because of American pressure. Even an ordinary illiterate peasant understands this and won't accept it.” Aman was the leader of a group of clerics who on Sunday vowed to call for jihad against the United States in three days unless it handed over the military interrogators reported to have desecrated the Qur'an.
And the truly laughable part about it all is that the desecration was most likely done casually, with no thought at all.
I look forward to the American Taliban's comments.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 07:04:20 [Permalink]
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quote: Originally posted by Renae
*sniffs the air*
Something smells.
Smells kinda like the CBS/Dan Rather fake memo set up.
Wouldn't surprise me if Karl Rove cooked the whole thing up and fed Newsweek a flimsy story. Gotta undermine the credibility of any media source that doesn't march lock-step with the right-wing propaganda machine.
Anybody read the Newsweek retraction? It listed some interesting points. First, they recieved a report that an investigation started about a Qu'ran thrown in a toilet at Gitmo. Second, that they tried verifying the story with no less than two Pentagon military sources, one of which made corrections to other parts of the story but did not refute the story and one who did not refute the story at all. The story being that there was an investigation into reports of a Qu'ran thrown in a toilet.
The religious extremists siezed on this act, which would offend Muslims, and portrayed it as true and not that there was only an investigation started about it. This sparked violence in the area.
It's also a nice way for the government to slap down another media source by feeding it incomplete information. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 10:10:00 [Permalink]
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Conspiracy theories are certainly stretched here. A Carl Rove plot to discredit Newsweek? It doesn't seem to be a logical choice of tactics.
The US admin. pressuring Newsweek to retract the story vs Newsweek realizing they published a really nasty accusation on really flimsy evidence? Could be either one.
Certainly some of the Gitmo releasees would have already made the claims so I guess I'm leaning toward flimsy evidence. I see some stupid reporter and editors having no clue what the significance of the report would be.
Could the US admin pressure a news source? Obviously, so whether they did or didn't in this case is pretty irrelevant. Since our government's taste for propaganda has gotten so obvious it's no wonder they have absolutely no credibility in the rest of the world. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 11:29:28 [Permalink]
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We can take this for whatever it might be worth: quote: LONDON - Several Britons who had been held at US military prisons in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba alleged Monday that they had seen their US guards desecrate the Koran.
Former prisoners Moazzam Begg, Feroz Abbasi and Jamal al-Harith alleged on the Islamic human rights website Cageprisoners.com that the Muslim holy book had been profaned.
Their statements appeared after clashes erupted in Muslim countries over a Newsweek magazine report that US interrogators at Guantanamo had defiled copies of the Koran by leaving them in toilet cubicles and flushing one down a toilet.
Newsweek, while acknowledging parts of its May 2 article could be wrong, has not issued a retraction.
Actual account or just jumping on the bandwagon? I dunno.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 12:19:51 [Permalink]
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The Rude Pundit digs a little deeper. quote: In its follow-up story, Newsweek quotes Col. Brad Blackner, Gitmo stooge, who says, "If you read the Al Qaeda training manual, they are trained to make allegations against the infidels." The Rude Pundit's actually read the Al-Qaeda training manual (readily available for your persual at the Smoking Gun), and it actually says nothing about making allegations against infidels. It does say that Allah disapproves of rumors. Oh, and the other thing about that? Many previously published and aired reports that talk about the desecration of the Koran are based on interviews with released Gitmo detainees. In other words, by definition they were not Al-Qaeda operatives. Unless, of course, now the military is saying Camp X-Ray is an Al-Qaeda training facility.
To wit (some of these and others are posted at Raw Story): From ABC Radio in Australia, on August 5, 2004, said that David Hicks and Mamdouh Habib, released from Gitmo, claim that "guards would throw detainees' Korans down the toilet and shave them, to try to get them to abandon their Muslim faith." It was denied by Australia's Secretary of the Navy.
From ABC News, John Berman reporting on August 3, 2004 quoted a British citizen released from Gitmo: "Asif Iqbal says guards would 'kick the Koran, throw it in the toilet, and generally disrespect it.'" Indeed, this allegation was made in an October 2004 lawsuit filed by the four Britons wrongly detained by the U.S.
In March 2003, the Houston Chronicle reported on 18 released Afghan men who claimed that "American soldiers insulted Islam by sitting on the Koran or dumping their sacred text into a toilet." The Washington Post that same week had this quote: "Ehsannullah, 29, said American soldiers who initially questioned him in Kandahar before shipping him to Guantanamo hit him and taunted him by dumping the Koran in a toilet. 'It was a very bad situation for us,' said Ehsannullah, who comes from the home region of the Taliban leader, Mohammad Omar. 'We cried so much and shouted, "Please do not do that to the Holy Koran."'"
The article has the reference links available.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 13:21:54 [Permalink]
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I had to send a reply to the Rude Pundit and nitpik on his claim that the linked to Al Queda manual on the Smoking Gun doesn't say anything about spreading rumors against the infidels. It actually states this has a side goal of the military on page 13. However the rest of his argument is quite impeccable, quote: Oh, and the other thing about that? Many previously published and aired reports that talk about the desecration of the Koran are based on interviews with released Gitmo detainees. In other words, by definition they were not Al-Qaeda operatives. Unless, of course, now the military is saying Camp X-Ray is an Al-Qaeda training facility.
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bloody_peasant
Skeptic Friend
USA
139 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 13:34:42 [Permalink]
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Some of the stuff from that Al Queda manual, is quite scary, as if you just changed Allah to God, and Mohammhed to Jesus, there would be little difference to the rhetoric coming from the Christian Dominist here in the U.S.
For instance from Shiek Inb Taimia
quote: "It should be understood that governing the people's affairs is one of the greatest religious obligations. In fact, without it, religion and world [affairs] could not be established."
and even more scary on a pure authoritarian note
quote: that would not be done except through force and lording. Likewise, the rest of what he [God] obligated [us with] would not be accomplished except by force and lordship, be it Jihad [holy war], justice, pilgrimage, assembly, holidays, support of the oppressed, or the establishment of boundaries. That is why it has been said, "the sultan is Allah's shadow on earth.
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 23:53:33 [Permalink]
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BP, I am impressed you would have read the "Al Queda manual". (I don't think Queda is spelled with a 'u' though.) So where did you get this manual and how were you sure it was real? |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2005 : 01:37:50 [Permalink]
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quote: Originally posted by beskeptigal
BP, I am impressed you would have read the "Al Queda manual". (I don't think Queda is spelled with a 'u' though.) So where did you get this manual and how were you sure it was real?
This perhaps? http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jihadmanual.html |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly" -- Terry Jones |
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