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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 06/04/2005 : 09:42:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
Religious nuttery in an isolated cult. Laws broken. Dogs shot. Women oppressed. Children possibly raped. Polygamy. Racism. Apocalyptic thinking.
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?pid=877
In--where else?--Texas.
Well, imagine that. A breakaway “Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.” As if the regular “Latter-Day Saints” (Mormon) are not weird enough. It makes me wonder if there will ever be a breakaway fundamentalist church if Scientology. (Not that Scientology isn't already a dangerous cult.) Show me a religion and, given enough time, I will show you a completely whacked out splinter group that will declare a return to the roots of whatever the religion was, or more often, what some delusional megalomaniac thinks it was. Show me a hate group that does not have some tie to a religion, even if it is a perversion of that religions message. (I am not including xenophobe's, though my guess is that some religion is somewhere behind that kind of hatred as well. Often it is obvious.)
Anyhow, Warren Jeffs, the leader of this particular cult, really does need a history of rock music lesson. Get his take on how the Beatles learned how to be the Beatles, and how all rock that followed came to be:
The Beatles
I'm guessing that the black man he refers to is Little Richard.
What a moron…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2005 : 10:47:39 [Permalink]
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| Jeez, what a fucking moron, I might add. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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froydnslp
New Member
22 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2005 : 11:20:23 [Permalink]
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Hi Renae,
If you are interested in this kind of splinter group stuff there is a great book called The Gathering Storm that deals with the Christian Identitists. It documents their belief systems and where they came from. Kinda fun.
There's also a little underground, throwaway newspaper in Utah, I think, called The Salamader Paper, which is a play on the infamous Salamander Papers that the Morman church hates to have brought up. The Salamader Papers are supposed letters from the founder of the church that state that he got the whole idea from a Salamader that he met with in the woods. The letters are probably a hoax, but the Morman church tried to buy them at one point. They are kind of embarrassing. Anyway, The little newspaper reports crazy activity in the name of Morman stuff and might address the splinter group that you are talking about. I tried to do a Google search and got no where. But I will call a friend who might know something and I'll let you know. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2005 : 14:19:23 [Permalink]
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Bah! The woods have always been full of 'em!
But it seems to me that various Christian sects go off the deep end more easily than others, especally the doomsday lunatics. Don't know why.
These dingbats could easily become another of the fight-to-the-death-ers, or a suicide cult a'la Jonestown. It only takes the right set of circumstances to tip them over, and if they are stockpiling arms.....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Randy
SFN Regular
USA
1990 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2005 : 14:22:17 [Permalink]
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| Bunch of lemmings; lazy thinkers. |
"We are all connected; to each other biologically, to the earth chemically, to the rest of the universe atomically."
"So you're made of detritus [from exploded stars]. Get over it. Or better yet, celebrate it. After all, what nobler thought can one cherish than that the universe lives within us all?"
-Neil DeGrasse Tyson |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2005 : 19:18:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Bunch of lemmings; lazy thinkers.
Its a sad commentary, but most people are lazy thinkers. That is why stupidity like this happens.
To be fair, thinking for ones self isn't an easy thing to do, and critical evaluation of what authority figures in your life tell you is even harder.
Which makes it all the more reprehensibe when whackadoodles like the people in charge of this group take advantage of others in their community. They could be helping others learn to think, instead of keeping them as sheep and using them.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/04/2005 : 20:49:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Froydnslp:
The Salamader Papers are supposed letters from the founder of the church that state that he got the whole idea from a Salamader that he met with in the woods.
quote:
Filthy:
Bah! The woods have always been full of 'em!
What? Salamanders? |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2005 : 03:45:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
quote:
Froydnslp:
The Salamader Papers are supposed letters from the founder of the church that state that he got the whole idea from a Salamader that he met with in the woods.
quote:
Filthy:
Bah! The woods have always been full of 'em!
What? Salamanders?
Yup, notably Cryptobranchus w. whackadoodlei. This bizarre and rather noisey creature is found in many sizes, shapes, and colors, and is driven by the single-minded desire to set up a patriarchial, mole rat-like colony with itself as the leading rat.
But once the colony is up and running, certain minor, individual differences might become manifest, depending upon the dementia of the leader. For example, some shoot congressmen, then commit mass suicide in a devout, Kool Aid ritual. Another might castrate all male members, then joyously commit mass suicide at the approach of a comet. And still another might set up a polygamous society with the leader getting a lot and the rest precious little, and commit mass suicide by baiting less-than-bright, government agencies.
Some even pump sarin gas into subways, but they might get nabbed before the impressive, mass suicide ceremony can take place.
An even more dangerous subspecies, Cryptobranchus w. blatherskitus, is far more ambitious. These can usually be found in mainstream churchs, and some set up schools to train members of the colony in the sublime arts of subverting the legal system. Others build museums to showcase their blather, and thus the subspecies name. They tend not to commit mass suicide due mainly to greed and the availibility of their members bank accounts.
Still another, Cryptobranchus w. dembskii, tends to be a large colony of ambitious and imaginitive liars. They strive like antlions to drag as many of their prey, juvenile Homo sapiens, as possible into a pit of denial and ignorance, effectivly crippling them in the scientific arts. They will go to any extreme to accomplish this goal. These too, serious about their long-term plans, also forgo the pleasure and excitement of mass suicide, alas...
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2005 : 07:09:24 [Permalink]
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| LOL |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2005 : 08:26:30 [Permalink]
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Thank you, froydnslp; I'll check that book out.
Part of why these cults grow is because our society allows it. The "respect others religion" mantra is so deeply ingrained in American culture that most people believe it.
I'm weary of that kind of thinking. I have no logical or moral responsibility to "respect someone's religion" when their religion violates the law or my own or society's moral standards.
And WHEN are people gonna understand that THE APOCALYPSE AIN'T COMING? |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2005 : 08:56:41 [Permalink]
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Wow!
Thanks Filthy! It all becomes clear now. It's always a good thing to have an expert on wildlife, and in this case, more specifically, amphibians and reptiles, as someone we can turn to for the scientific lowdown.
Of course, I was drinking my morning coffee when I read your reply and I am now thinking sending you the dry cleaning bill. Hope my keyboard dries out soon…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2005 : 09:13:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Renae
And WHEN are people gonna understand that THE APOCALYPSE AIN'T COMING?
Let's see if you are that sure when the world implodes around you. Mwah. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2005 : 09:39:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Renea:
Part of why these cults grow is because our society allows it. The "respect others religion" mantra is so deeply ingrained in American culture that most people believe it.
I'm weary of that kind of thinking. I have no logical or moral responsibility to "respect someone's religion" when their religion violates the law or my own or society's moral standards.
You are under no obligation to respect any religion at all. Tolerance however, is a good idea in most cases. Tolerance is not a synonym for respect. Mutual tolerance would be the ideal. I do not believe that the first amendment and the establishment clause intent is that we should respect all speech and religion that we find objectionable. Its intent is to protect speech and to codify, in to law, tolerance (protection) of ideas and speech, including speech and religious beliefs that some of us may find objectionable.
Guarding against any dilution of those rights, which are under constant attack, is probably the most important job we have as citizens of this country.
When a cult or religion breaks the laws of the land, they should be dealt with accordingly. Breaking the law is what should not be tolerated.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2005 : 11:42:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Wow!
Thanks Filthy! It all becomes clear now. It's always a good thing to have an expert on wildlife, and in this case, more specifically, amphibians and reptiles, as someone we can turn to for the scientific lowdown.
Of course, I was drinking my morning coffee when I read your reply and I am now thinking sending you the dry cleaning bill. Hope my keyboard dries out soon…
The study of natural history is oft fraught with hazard.... Sorry 'bout the keyboard. I'd loan you mine in the interm, but it's such a shitty speler that it'd not give good service.
Reading history, the leaders of these cults, present and past, have one thing in common: they are monomanical but charismatic losers. From Joseph Smith to this Warren Jeffs dingbat; from Jim Jones to David Koresh, to Charlie Manson, none ever fit into their society with any degree of success or acceptance.
This is not to say that the cult as a whole can't be successful, as witness the Church of Latter Day Saints. Thus, some few do have staying power, and indeed, Christianity itself might be included in this group. After all, the history of the life of Jesus is hazy at best and filled with tales of the supernatural.
What's to be done with these hitleresque madmen? After all, insanity is not against the law. Abuses of course are, but it seems that law enforcement is hesitant to go after them for it due to a possible charge of religious discrimination and the embarrasment (and lawsuits) that would follow if they get it wrong. And typically, the cult's rank and file rarely come forward until the leader is locked up or, preferably, dead.
For the most part, aside from lowering property values, the cults have little impact upon the communities they settle in. They tend to keep pretty much to themselves. Their abuses are also kept among themselves and often do not become common knowledge until they disband of are busted on firearms violations, a'la Koresh. Manson of course, was an anomoly in that he went after outsiders for other than recruitmant.
One can only hope that Mr. Jeffs, like many another before him, will soon streach his tether too far and get hauled away by the authorities. Or lynched.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Renae
SFN Regular
543 Posts |
Posted - 06/12/2005 : 07:16:00 [Permalink]
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Filthy, you are a truly tolerant sort. While I strive for that, I fail when it comes to cults.
I like your distinction between tolerate and respect, Kil. I've thought about this subject a lot, trying to figure out why cults bother me so much and why I can't muster the tolerance I maybe should have.
While I think critical thinking is worthy in and of itself (because thinking and learning about anything makes us better), I'm a skekptic in large part because I see the harm that comes from not thinking critically. Obvious examples: flimflammers separating you from your hard-earned money, groupthink, screwing up your body with harmful herbs.
It seems to me that cults often create the ultimate in non-critical thinking (not thinking at ALL) leading to the ultimate harm (abuse, rape, thievery, and death).
If I talked my neighbor out of her life savings, shot her dog, and molested her daughter, wouldn't I be arrested rather quickly? I understand charges are finally filed against Jeffs...but how long has the illegal crap been going on?
By tolerating their religion, we allow them an environment of secrecy, control, oppression and even crime.
The only solution I can think of is education. But the poor people in that cult were born into it; they're isolated from any information that might encourage them to question things.
Sigh. |
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