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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
 Posted - 07/11/2005 : 21:43:46 [Permalink]
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So you say information can be filtered, but we need to find evidence of it. Well, people who commit crimes always purposly leave evidence or confess to crimes everyday don't they. Yes, you do take things at face value.
Criminals always leave evidence behind on purpose??? I take this at face value??? You're not making sense.
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If someone with marks behind his name tells you something, guaranteed you will take his word at face value, even if evidence exists that what he says maybe wrong.
No, I will not be "guaranteed" to take his word at face value, especially if the evidence says otherwise. What are you on about?
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Maybe this person has an agenda for himself, or from somewhere else. Point is how would you or any one know. You are going on the fact that he/she is a proffesional of his/her field and they know what they are talking about. You have no say so. Just like the preacher in the pull pit prophezing to the people about how he knows god. Ideas and what we consider 'fact' at the times always have and do change.
What if one wrong person made one mistake, and all of one theory or what have you is all baloney, and always was.
Ideas do change over time, as new "facts" (ie evidence) becomes known. We will always be drawing our conclusions on the evidence we have at hand.
Your preacher analogy fails. Religion does not base its conclusion on the evidence alone. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2005 : 21:47:15 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HYBRID
Exactly, have a nice existence...
And you as well...
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2005 : 22:00:39 [Permalink]
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Why is there no evidence for aliens existing? How is we don't know it so it could exist logically flawed?
It isn't, I was saying before that you were correct in saying that just because we don't know how they do it doesn't mean they can't do it.
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Skeptics tend to generalize everything into one clump, and that is the most unscientific thing I have ever heard.
For example?
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At one point, no one thought flying was possible period. Were the people at that time also logically flawed?
Not logically flawed, but ignorant. They didn't know the laws of science that we do know which allow us to fly. They didn't know of materials that we have created or found through science which allow for lighter planes to fly.
I am willing to make a wager with you. Any thing you can find that has been reveal as a flaw in science, it is science itself that revealed that flaw. Science corrects itself through long processes of peer review.
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There is much more than pictures and eyewitness testimony out there.
I bet you're wrong. But please, I beg of you, show me I am wrong. What else is out there? Some hard evidence? If so, I would absolutely love to give a look.
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But if you want to get technical, people are put to death for eyewitness testimony, and I don't think that science is more important than a human beings life.
As I, and others, have already stated, eyewitness testimony is just not reliable.
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My point is that humans have flaws, and ultimately, science is man made. If we, humans, were perfect, thousands of people would not die everyday to government issued cigarettes and other atrocities like genocide would not exist.
Ain't that the truth. So we should give up. That's right, HYBRID, go back and live in a cave because science isn't absolute.
Just because it isn't perfect, doesn't mean it isn't the best we have. Science and skepticism are the best damn tools we have, and I'd rather use them than nothing at all.
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And yes science has become dogmatic, because there are certain guidelines you have to follow before presenting information to the public.
What guidelines are these?
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Do you know who funds these projects? At the root the government.
A lot of science, for example chemical companies, fund their science privately. And there isn't just one government, science is funded by governments all over the world. Unless you think one person or organization is controlling them?
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It works like this, indoctrination is when you force feed someone information and tell them not to interpret it or think about it, but just take it how it is and that's it.
As sad as it is, for the most part, you are correct here. Something I think, especially when teaching science, that needs to be changed.
However, there are exceptions. For example, Mr. Dale, my 8th grade civics teacher divided the class into different states and had us debate over issues that the founding fathers had. We got to experience what it was like for them to have to draft a Constitution, even if only for a few hours. There are other personal examples I have, but I don't think they are needed.
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My point is that yes science can be and is dogmatic for the most parts. Math is pretty universal, but to say that we know all there is to know, or close to it is nonsense.
And who has said that? Certainly no one here. In fact, there is not another group of people I know who are so in tune with the progress science is making today.
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I would like you to know that I say these things with conviction, and my job is not to convince anybody anything.
That's fine. You don't have to convince anyone, or try to for that matter. You can come here and share your opinions.
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And when you come up with ideas outside of the dogma you don't get a prize, you usually get ignored or fired or ostricized, good joke though.
Explain Einstein who changed 200 years of physics. Explain Watson and Crick who found it was DNA, not amino acids which everyone else thought at the time, that was the building block of life. There are many examples of people who overturned mainstream science, and became famous for doing so.
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As for the Logical Fallicies, no thanks, I don't like to be told how to think.
I'm not quite sure if you are understanding what logic fallacies are, as they are not ways to think. So a little intro:
The one I mentioned before was Argument from Ignorance. It normally takes on this form:
"We don't know what caused _______, so therefore it was caused by _______."
Fill those blanks in with whatever you want. Beginning of the Universe and God, or abiogenesis and in invisible pink unicorns.
Now if you could ever show me that not knowing the cause can lead to you knowing the cause, well, I'd be stumped.
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How do you know that no one has had their hands on emperical evidence?
The thing about evidence, at least evidence in science, is that you can always do it yourself. If you don't believe something is right, test it.
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Why continue? Because we must. Because we have the call. Because it is nobler to fight for rationality without winning than to give up in the face of continued defeats. Because whatever true progress humanity makes is through the rationality of the occasional individual and because any one individual we may win for the cause may do more for humanity than a hundred thousand who hug their superstitions to their breast.
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| Edited by - Ricky on 07/11/2005 22:01:40 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2005 : 22:14:31 [Permalink]
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I think we've lost him. Ah well.
It never fails to amaze me that people come here without the slightest idea of what they're getting into. They do no research concerning these fora at all, but just jump right in, as blind as a cave fish at midnight.
Sad....
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 07/11/2005 : 23:10:39 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by filthy
It never fails to amaze me that people come here without the slightest idea of what they're getting into. They do no research concerning these fora at all, but just jump right in, as blind as a cave fish at midnight.
Sad....
It always amazing me how damn close minded all these self-proclaimed "free thinkers" are. Sad indeed.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 06:39:19 [Permalink]
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| I find your ostricizing interesting, when I get done with my root canal, I will put together a list of sources of many of the things you asked for, but when I do, can at least someone else put some serious thought into it. If not I will not waiste my time. You won't always have all of the pieces to put together a puzzle. Sometimes you have to think about with in your own mind and put two and two together, just ask the guy who created evolution. No where near all the pieces exist, and evidence to the contrary exists, but since evolution is an exception (when in other instances it is not, just this one), and emperical evidence for this is manufactured in the human mind, and not exactly with fact. I will be back in a few hours. |
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woolytoad
Skeptic Friend
313 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 07:01:26 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HYBRID
but when I do, can at least someone else put some serious thought into it. .....
just ask the guy who created evolution. No where near all the pieces exist, and evidence to the contrary exists, but since evolution is an exception (when in other instances it is not, just this one), and empirical evidence for this is manufactured in the human mind, and not exactly with fact.
Never ask someone to do something, you yourself would not do. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 07:16:11 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HYBRID
I find your ostricizing interesting, when I get done with my root canal, I will put together a list of sources of many of the things you asked for, but when I do, can at least someone else put some serious thought into it. If not I will not waiste my time. You won't always have all of the pieces to put together a puzzle. Sometimes you have to think about with in your own mind and put two and two together, just ask the guy who created evolution. No where near all the pieces exist, and evidence to the contrary exists, but since evolution is an exception (when in other instances it is not, just this one), and emperical evidence for this is manufactured in the human mind, and not exactly with fact. I will be back in a few hours.
Ah, you're back! Excellent!
I have a problem with the bolded statement. No one created evolution, only the theory of it. And that was the work of many people even before Darwin.
Further, evidence manufactured in the mind is no evidence at all unless it can be tested. No one is more receptive to new information than we, but before we can accept it, it must conform to certain criteria: it must be testable and falsifiable. The theory of evolution is the most rigorously tested theory in science and remains unfalsified. Hereza 'nother link: the Talk Origins Archive.
Wishing all luck with the root canal. I've never had one, but I'm told that they can be a bitch.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 08:04:17 [Permalink]
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Welcome back, HYBRID. Your original posting seemed to start off mainly in two directions. It looked like you were supporting a claim that space aliens are, or have been visiting the earth. It also looked like you were concerned that the skeptical and scientific communities are missing something in their analysis of these claims. As the thread developed it became difficult to understand exactly what you were trying to say.
You mentioned that we were "not dealing with the root of the problem," yet you haven't been clear about what that problem is. It seemed like some frustration was brewing, both with you and with some of the other members of the discussion. We will certainly give you the respect of staying on course, as long as we have some notion of what that course is. May I suggest you define your concerns. Then we can all stay focused within those parameters for a more productive and enlightening exchange.quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID...
I find your ostricizing interesting, when I get done with my root canal, I will put together a list of sources of many of the things you asked for, but when I do, can at least someone else put some serious thought into it. If not I will not waiste my time.
You won't find a group more willing to put serious thought to any issue. Be aware that the skeptics' serious thought will discard backwards logic, doesn't allow for filling in the unknowns with "truths" created in our imaginations, and doesn't accept the premise that something must be true if it has not been proved to be false. These concepts often appear to the non-skeptic as negativism or closed mindedness, when in fact they are exactly the opposite of that. If there are errors in your logic, we will be quick to point them out.quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID...
You won't always have all of the pieces to put together a puzzle. Sometimes you have to think about with in your own mind and put two and two together, just ask the guy who created evolution. No where near all the pieces exist, and evidence to the contrary exists, but since evolution is an exception (when in other instances it is not, just this one), and emperical evidence for this is manufactured in the human mind, and not exactly with fact. I will be back in a few hours.
The theory of evolution wasn't "created". It, shall I say it?, evolved. The idea that living things change over time to adapt to their environment has been developing for centuries. When enough of the pieces were all in one place for Darwin to propose a testable, examinable theory, he presented it to the world's scientific community with the intent that they tear it to shreds trying to find all the possible flaws in the theory. That's how the scientific process works.
Empirical evidence by definition, "empirical: based on experimental data, not on a theory," is not manufactured in one's mind, fantasies and delusions are. This difference between evidence and delusion often becomes a bone of contention between skeptics and the faithful. It is often perceived by the faithful as a way for skeptics to deny the "truth". In reality, skeptics just won't accept fantasy as evidence to support any claim.
Again, welcome back. Let's work to get a tighter focus and have a good discussion here. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 09:20:55 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by HYBRID
Why is there no evidence for aliens existing? How is we don't know it so it could exist logically flawed?
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that aliens do not exist. I believe the contention is that there is no evidence for an extrarestrial intelligent being visiting this fourth rate planet orbiting a third rate star in a remote area of the galaxy.
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Skeptics tend to generalize everything into one clump, and that is the most unscientific thing I have ever heard. At one point, no one thought flying was possible period. Were the people at that time also logically flawed? You are the master of your own universe, not everyone else's my friend. There is much more than pictures and eyewitness testimony out there. But if you want to get technical, people are put to death for eyewitness testimony, and I don't think that science is more important than a human beings life.
That's a rash generalization. Also unsupported.
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My point is that humans have flaws, and ultimately, science is man made. If we, humans, were perfect, thousands of people would not die everyday to government issued cigarettes and other atrocities like genocide would not exist.
I see the beginnings of a prejudgial logical fallacy here. Science is a methodology. It has changed and developed as the body of evidence has grown. The observer may be flawed. The methodology has been corrected through a millenia of application and revision.
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My job is not to convince you of anything, because you will not believe or buy into anything, just to think about some things. And yes science has become dogmatic, because there are certain guidelines you have to follow before presenting information to the public.Do you know who funds these projects? At the root the government. At what point is this information not filtered through before we actually get it? It seems to me the narrative for how human life and science has already been written before the info is formulatted thoroughly.
This sounds a lot like Chomski. You do realize he is a linguist and not a scientist nor a historian. Therefore, he is speaking outside his expertise.
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Would you like to know how education in the west is dogmatic? It works like this, indoctrination is when you force feed someone information and tell them not to interpret it or think about it, but just take it how it is and that's it. Well the education system works like this, you memorize information, most of it you don't get to evaluate or critical think about it and maybe the pros and cons and countless other things out there that a human being who is capable of infinite thought could have to aply to this. Instead you are told to remember this info, and spit it back out that way on paper and if you don't you will not progress. In other words we are given 'facts'to take in as truths, no matter what we may think or feel or whatever, and told this is all there is and you better know it or else you will not get the things you want or what have you. This is a problem for me in an institution of learning. We all have things to learn from eachother and so on, letters behind our names or not. We are all still flawed humans.
My point is that yes science can be and is dogmatic for the most parts. Math is pretty universal, but to say that we know all there is to know, or close to it is nonesense. I would like you to know that I say these things with conviction, and my job is not to convince anybody anything.
And here is the point of the skeptic. We know that there is a vast number of things we have yet to discover and find explainations for. Where did you get such an idea that scientists don't know that? You also are starting down a path of extistentialist arguementation. Without the basis of observations being accurate, discussion on any subject becomes meaningless.
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Franz Heider is a psychologist who created what is known as naive psychology. Which is the study of why people think life is predictable to fit their own psychological fears. He said that people tend to make the unpredictable predictable in their own minds to make a scary world, not so scary or unpredictable, when in fact it is. There are many aspects to this, but I don't think any of you will pay it any mind.And when you come up with ideas outside of the dogma you don't get a prize, you usually get ignored or fired or ostricized, good joke though.
Gee, hundres of years of physics are wrong because things aren't predictable? We've discovered several laws of motion. Should we disregard these established patterns in favor of believing things cannot be predicted in specific frames of reference. Should we stop using cars because the theories of combustion might be suspended locally? |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 10:38:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID
I find your ostricizing interesting, when I get done with my root canal, I will put together a list of sources of many of the things you asked for, but when I do, can at least someone else put some serious thought into it. If not I will not waiste my time. You won't always have all of the pieces to put together a puzzle. Sometimes you have to think about with in your own mind and put two and two together, just ask the guy who created evolution. No where near all the pieces exist, and evidence to the contrary exists, but since evolution is an exception (when in other instances it is not, just this one), and emperical evidence for this is manufactured in the human mind, and not exactly with fact. I will be back in a few hours.
Ah, you're back! Excellent!
I have a problem with the bolded statement. No one created evolution, only the theory of it. And that was the work of many people even before Darwin.
You know exactly what I mean, let's stick to the point. Quit using word play, and focus on the reasons. Many like who? I am not sure Darwin bought into what he was theororizing.
Further, evidence manufactured in the mind is no evidence at all unless it can be tested. No one is more receptive to new information than we, but before we can accept it, it must conform to certain criteria: it must be testable and falsifiable. The theory of evolution is the most rigorously tested theory in science and remains unfalsified. Hereza 'nother link: the Talk Origins Archive.
Yeah right, remains unfalsified, that is funny. Did you read what I wrote back then. Evolution is a theory full of holes and lacks much evidence. Pretty much the theory of evolutions takes 'evidence' and creates a story with that with no absolute proof, but absolute proof is what science is based on.
We don't have any intermediate species to study, we don't have the exact species that came out of the trees and why, I could do this all day with this holey theory, but the point is that there is hardly anything definite about the theory. You have got some skeletons, and an imagination which created the whole thing. This is a contradiction, on the behalf of science as well as people.
Wishing all luck with the root canal. I've never had one, but I'm told that they can be a bitch.
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| Edited by - HYBRID on 07/12/2005 10:54:59 |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 10:54:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
Welcome back, HYBRID. Your original posting seemed to start off mainly in two directions. It looked like you were supporting a claim that space aliens are, or have been visiting the earth. It also
looked like you were concerned that the skeptical and scientific communities are missing something in their analysis of these claims. As the thread developed it became difficult to understand exactly what you were trying to say.
When did I say that I supported anything? I am merely asking questions trying to provoke some thought outside of classroom or 'scientific' knowledge.
You mentioned that we were "not dealing with the root of the problem," yet you haven't been clear about what that problem is. It seemed like some frustration was brewing, both with you and with some of the other members of the discussion. We will certainly give you the respect of staying on course, as long as we have some notion of what that course is. May I suggest you define your concerns. Then we can all stay focused within those parameters for a more productive and enlightening exchange.quote:
Originally posted by HYBRID...
I find your ostricizing interesting, when I get done with my root canal, I will put together a list of sources of many of the things you asked for, but when I do, can at least someone else put some serious thought into it. If not I will not waiste my time.
You won't find a group more willing to put serious thought to any issue. Be aware that the skeptics' serious thought will discard backwards logic, doesn't allow for filling in the unknowns with "truths" created in our imaginations, and doesn't accept the premise that something must be true if it has not been proved to be false. These concepts often appear to the non-skeptic as negativism or closed mindedness, when in fact they are exactly the opposite of that. If there are errors in your logic, we will be quick to point them out.
First of all, who are any of you to say what is backward logic?YOu have no idea what my logic maybe, you are assuming. Who are you, the brain police? How ego driven! If there are errors in my logic, thank you Freud.First of all, before we continue, you guys will have to quit crapping on me from your high horse, and come down here with the 'regular folk'.That is a slight joke, for all of you uptights.
[quote]Originally posted by HYBRID...
You won't always have all of the pieces to put together a puzzle. Sometimes you have to think about with in your own mind and put two and two together, just ask the guy who created evolution. No where near all the pieces exist, and evidence to the contrary exists, but since evolution is an exception (when in other instances it is not, just this one), and emperical evidence for this is manufactured in the human mind, and not exactly with fact. I will be back in a few hours.
The theory of evolution wasn't "created". It, shall I say it?, evolved. The idea that living things change over time to adapt to their environment has been developing for centuries.
Which I agree with totally. Apelike creatures evolving into humans from the trees is total crap though.
When enough of the pieces were all in one place for Darwin to propose a testable, examinable theory, he presented it to the world's scientific community with the intent that they tear it to shreds trying to find all the possible flaws in the theory. That's how the scientific process works.
How did he test it? With what? All of the intermediate species still evolving, because there are none. You have got bones, you do have the fact that species adapt, but you still don't have the exactness that you speak so highly of. GO ahead and tell me that you can turn a piece of wood into a playstation 2 also.
Empirical evidence by definition, "empirical: based on experimental data, not on a theory," is not manufactured in one's mind, fantasies and delusions are. This difference between evidence and delusion often becomes a bone of contention between skeptics and the faithful. It is often perceived by the faithful as a way for skeptics to deny the "truth". In reality, skeptics just won't accept fantasy as evidence to support any claim.
Look here, I would appreciate it if you would quit talking to me like I am some kind of idiot. That, I am not sir. "The difference between evidence and delusion..." YOu have some nerve buddy. Faithful? Man, you need to address someone else before I actually do get pissed. YOu have insulted me!
Again, welcome back. Let's work to get a tighter focus and have a good discussion here.
Yeah if you quit talking to me like some kind of retard.
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| Edited by - HYBRID on 07/12/2005 10:57:51 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 10:58:48 [Permalink]
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It seems that the new dogma of life has shifted from religion, to 'science'. When both indoctrinate you to only think a certain way, or shut you down from thinking altogether.
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Evolution is a theory full of holes and lacks much evidence. Pretty much the theory of evolutions takes 'evidence' and creates a story with that with no absolute proof, but absolute proof is what science is based on.
Obviously you have no understanding of what science is. Don't feel to bad though, because most people are just as ignorant as you appear to be.
The good thing is that you can educate yourself, learn what science is, if you choose to do so. From the tone of your posts I'm betting that you won't though. You appear to be happy with your twisted and narrow minded little worldview.
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We don't have any intermediate species to study, we don't have the exact species that came out of the trees and why, I could do this all day with this holey theory, but the point is that there is hardly anything definite about the theory. You have got some skeletons, and an imagination which created the whole thing. This is a contradiction, on the behalf of science as well as people.
And now you think evolution isn't solidly evidenced. The hallmark of the truly ignorant is evolution denial. Just fire up google (I think that the link has been provided for you already in this thread) and do a search for "talk origins". Go to their evidence for evolution archive.
Oh, and GL with the root canal.... a procedure, fyi, developed through the use of science. Make sure you follow your doctors instructions to the letter after the procedure.
And welcome to the SFN.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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| Edited by - Dude on 07/12/2005 11:01:46 |
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 11:04:27 [Permalink]
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So you have a problem with the humans from monkeys then? Because we have millions of pages of direct evidence of evolution in action Im afraid, that you and your questionable sources choose to ignore it is unfortunate but nothing we arent used to.
First data point you missed while ignoring evolution is that most of our information isnt from skeletons. Living tissue tells you so much more than do skeletons, unless your working with hair which can have both. Just one of many different types of evidence which all confirm(by not falsifying) the ToE. We do not worship Darwin as he was wrong about alot of things, being that he had only his own data for the most part and a nasty habit of still believing in the good book. But luckily we have thousands of nice folks who picked up where he left off, so that we could get more and better data and correct the things that darwin didnt have the benifit of seeing the big picture on. The one thing he was dead on about however was the basic idea of descent with modification. Note that the ToE does not claim to explain the Bigbang or abiogenisis.
So while you rant about "holey theory" what exactly are you claiming happened otherwise? Or are you just pretending not to be a creationist? |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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HYBRID
BANNED
USA
344 Posts |
Posted - 07/12/2005 : 11:25:57 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by Ricky
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Why is there no evidence for aliens existing? How is we don't know it so it could exist logically flawed?
It isn't, I was saying before that you were correct in saying that just because we don't know how they do it doesn't mean they can't do it.
quote:
Skeptics tend to generalize everything into one clump, and that is the most unscientific thing I have ever heard.
For example?
Anything that science has not acknowlegded, by choice or not choosing to identify it. Or something that mass amounts of people experience or what have you. This is not totally good enough, but I tend to put ALL info together to get the bigger picture, and not just what a laboratory can show to put on paper. Skepticism can be like racial profiling, to a degree, only works some of the time, and other times you just look bad. ONly difference is, the government will not allow themselves to look bad.
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At one point, no one thought flying was possible period. Were the people at that time also logically flawed?
Not logically flawed, but ignorant. They didn't know the laws of science that we do know which allow us to fly. They didn't know of materials that we have created or found through science which allow for lighter planes to fly.
That is another point totally. I for one acknowlegde that in our ancient past flight was possible. And they were not ignorant. If you looked at and studied some of the ancient wonders, you may come up with a different conclusion. YOu were just told to think so (indoctrination=we tell what to think-using your own jugdement in addition to).
I am willing to make a wager with you. Any thing you can find that has been reveal as a flaw in science, it is science itself that revealed that flaw. Science corrects itself through long processes of peer review.
Now that is funny! Replace the word science with god, and you have another prison of the mind.
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There is much more than pictures and eyewitness testimony out there.
I bet you're wrong. But please, I beg of you, show me I am wrong. What else is out there? Some hard evidence? If so, I would absolutely love to give a look.
What is hard evidence
in your opinion, specifically?
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But if you want to get technical, people are put to death for eyewitness testimony, and I don't think that science is more important than a human beings life.
As I, and others, have already stated, eyewitness testimony is just not reliable.
Remember that the next time a human being is put to death over it. The nerve...
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My point is that humans have flaws, and ultimately, science is man made. If we, humans, were perfect, thousands of people would not die everyday to government issued cigarettes and other atrocities like genocide would not exist.
Ain't that the truth. So we should give up. That's right, HYBRID, go back and live in a cave because science isn't absolute.
When did I say this? There is a prime example of the skeptical generalization. Do you know how many times I have heard this from skeptics? This statement is a generalization. We can have science, minus the corruption and agendas, come on!
Just because it isn't perfect, doesn't mean it isn't the best we have. Science and skepticism are the best damn tools we have, and I'd rather use them than nothing at all.
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And yes science has become dogmatic, because there are certain guidelines you have to follow before presenting information to the public.
What guidelines are these?
When archeaologist (which I am in route to becoming one) or whatever gets funding from say the gov',they let you know ahead of time that the findings must go with the theory of evolution or the already accepted theory of history of mankind. My Professors have told me this on several occasions.
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Do you know who funds these projects? At the root the government.
A lot of science, for example chemical companies, fund their science privately. And there isn't just one government, science is funded by governments all over the world. Unless you think one person or organization is controlling them?
When? And the findings must go to the government, if the findings are to get into an institution and major publicity. Yes, there is one force governing them all, but you ain't ready for all that though.[
quote]It works like this, indoctrination is when you force feed someone information and tell them not to interpret it or think about it, but just take it how it is and that's it.
As sad as it is, for the most part, you are correct here. Something I think, especially when teaching science, that needs to be changed.
So how can alot of info be taken for what it is? It is indoctrination!
However, there are exceptions. For example, Mr. Dale, my 8th grade civics teacher divided the class into different states and had us debate over issues that the founding fathers had. We got to experience what it was like for them to have to draft a Constitution, even if only for a few hours. There are other personal examples I have, but I don't think they are needed.
Of course there are exceptions.
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My point is that yes science can be and is dogmatic for the most parts. Math is pretty universal, but to say that we know all there is to know, or close to it is nonsense.
And who has said that? Certainly no one here. In fact, there is not another group of people I know who are so in tune with the progress science is making today.
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I would like you to know that I say these things with conviction, and my job is not to convince anybody anything.
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