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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 08/10/2005 : 17:00:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Has there ever been any observation of an animal (excluding those of a hive instinct) saving another animal's life at the risk of its own; and it is apparent that the animal knew that it would likely die in the rescue?
I saw a documentary on Swedish TV about a herd of elephants where a young elephant got swamped in an almost dried-up waterhole. Each struggling move only made it worse, and the poor thing was seriously on it's way to drown. The rest of the elephant herd then made a very coordinated rescue operation to save the young one. I couldn't say though, if any of the other elephants involved in the operation risked it's life. But the way the elephants took on different assignments in the operation, one going down to help the young one keep afloat and moral support, others were working on creating a ramp out of the high bank of the water hole.
It left me with the impression that elephants are a far more intelligent than I previously thought.
On another animal documentary I saw a flock of chimpanzee, where a crocodile managed to snatch a baby chimp. The flock leader made some furious attacks at the crock, clearly putting his life at risk in order to get the baby back. After some really close calls, the flock leader managed to get the crock to give up the baby-chimp and retire, but by then it was too late.
I can't say that neither of these examples are truly examples of animals sacrificing themselves for offspring or "close ones", but they do represent instances where they subject themselves to potential danger in order to save members of their community.
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2005 : 18:00:12 [Permalink]
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Again, these species, elephants and chimps, live in family groups (that are added to by a few outsiders now and then, but that's another topic); elephants in a matriarchy, chimps in a male dominated 'dictatorship,' for lack of a better word. They will defend and/or rescue a youngster even if it's not directly related to them. Further, the dominant individuals will face a threat to protect the rest of the group. Three or four high-ranking, male chimps have been noted as actually killing leapords. And the matriarch of an elephant herd and her court are not animals to trifle with.
I seem to recall seeing the elephant documentary. It was a good one.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2005 : 18:24:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Three or four high-ranking, male chimps have been noted as actually killing leapords.
I would find that surprising if I hadn't already heard about the 73 year-old Kenyan man who killed a leopard by ripping out its tongue with his bare hands. 
I guess that just like sharp teeth or claws, opposable thumbs are weapons in their own right.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
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| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/10/2005 18:24:47 |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2005 : 18:32:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
I would find that surprising if I hadn't already heard about the 73 year-old Kenyan man who killed a leopard by ripping out its tongue with his bare hands.
I remember reading that. I kind of assumed it was an urban legend. Wouldn't a leopard rather bite the guys hand off?
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2005 : 18:50:55 [Permalink]
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In response to Hippy4Christ's question, If so, how would that instinct evolve, since it is directly contrary to self-preservation?
I've heard this same question in regards to why upper class women with more means tend to have less children, and why homosexuality exists. I think such questions arise from an overly simplified understanding of the evolutionary process. Self-preservation isn't the only way to maximize the passing on of genetic info into future generations.
Different pressures in the environment can cause conflicting traits to evolve. Consider how Africans are especially suceptable to rickets because the same thing that causes rickets made them less susceptible to malaria, and malaria killed more people than rickets did. Some amount of altruism is necessary for the survival of a social species. But a drive for self-preservation, as well as preservation of close kin is also beneficial to the passing on of genes. We see this reflected in human societies overall. People are willing to die for total strangers only once in a while. People are willing to die for their nation or clan more often. People are willing to die for their own family even more often. But in general, the majority of people are pretty resistant to dying at all. Humans by necessity are a balance of selfishness and compassion.
Also, there will always be a minority of people with genetically inherited traits that are not advantageous to survival due to the nature of sexual reproduction requiring diversity, and recessive genes. Obviously severe hereditary diseases are selected against, but they still sneak in because people who don't have the disease can still be carriers. The same could be true for genes that make someone prone to extreme forms of altruism.
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| Edited by - marfknox on 08/10/2005 18:54:37 |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2005 : 18:57:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawks
quote:
I would find that surprising if I hadn't already heard about the 73 year-old Kenyan man who killed a leopard by ripping out its tongue with his bare hands.
I remember reading that. I kind of assumed it was an urban legend. Wouldn't a leopard rather bite the guys hand off?
Its counter-intuitive to bite down on the thing you are trying to pull away from. I honestly don't think animals are capable of thinking through a situation like that. They just react. Have you have grabbed a dog's tongue? In my experience, their only reaction is to open their mouths as wide as they can and pull themselves away.
Then again, perhaps he had his arm so far down the thing's throat it couldn't bite down.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/10/2005 18:59:28 |
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend
Australia
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2005 : 19:03:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
In response to Hippy4Christ's question, If so, how would that instinct evolve, since it is directly contrary to self-preservation?
What is this "instinct" we are considering here?
Is your question "Is suicide an instinct that over-rides self preservation?"
Or, "Is martydom an instinct?" |
"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2005 : 19:11:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by hippy4christ
Hello Board,
I saw this thread and felt like reviving it.
Has there ever been any observation of an animal (excluding those of a hive instinct) saving another animal's life at the risk of its own; and it is apparent that the animal knew that it would likely die in the rescue?
If so, how would that instinct evolve, since it is directly contrary to self-preservation? And if not, how did humans gain this ability?
Hippy
I recommend that you read "The Selfish Gene" by Richard Dawkins. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/10/2005 : 20:33:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
I would find that surprising if I hadn't already heard about the 73 year-old Kenyan man who killed a leopard by ripping out its tongue with his bare hands.
I still want to see Kent Hovind rip a leg off a live alligator to prove his "theory" about cavemen ripping the arms off T. rex to bleed them to death. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2005 : 02:49:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
I would find that surprising if I hadn't already heard about the 73 year-old Kenyan man who killed a leopard by ripping out its tongue with his bare hands.
I still want to see Kent Hovind rip a leg off a live alligator to prove his "theory" about cavemen ripping the arms off T. rex to bleed them to death.
Heh, and I will supply the 'gator, or rather, as that would be illegle, a caiman. I know where there is a nice, fat, very ill-tempered specticaled I can borrow... 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2005 : 16:55:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
I would find that surprising if I hadn't already heard about the 73 year-old Kenyan man who killed a leopard by ripping out its tongue with his bare hands.
I still want to see Kent Hovind rip a leg off a live alligator to prove his "theory" about cavemen ripping the arms off T. rex to bleed them to death.
Heh, and I will supply the 'gator, or rather, as that would be illegle, a caiman. I know where there is a nice, fat, very ill-tempered specticaled I can borrow...
Weren't dinos featuring old legends as dragons?
Why a croc or a gator?
I propose Kent versus Dragon.
Komodo-dragon.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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