|
|
|
|
trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
 Posted - 07/26/2005 : 10:48:39
|
I was watching a show on A&E last night about rampage killers - those who kill a group of people, not relatives, in a single episode [as opposed to serial killers]. The experts on the show [including Dr Park Dietz] said that most rampage killers are older and more educated than your average murderer. They feel isolated from society, misunderstood and rejected. The rampage is often their very first contact with law enforcement, unlike other murderers, who usually have past known crimes.
It got me thinking that this sounds a lot like the profile of the 9/11 hijackers. In fact, the only difference between what we call rampage killers and terrorists is that the latter have a middle east/Islamic connection. The main difference I see is that homegrown rampage killers develop their rage alone or with a small number of cohorts, where Islamic rampagers have the help of an organized religion that glorifies such behavior.
This makes me think that anti-terror legislation will never be able to turn the tide of terrorism. It seems pretty obvious that the no-criminal-record aspect of the hijackers made it difficult for law enforcement to believe that they were up to something.
On the issue of rampage killers, the experts on A&E said that they give off signals - they are alienated, isolated, and angry. They complain about bullying. They somethimes engage in stalking. Especially with the younger people with this profile, personal attention can prevent a person from rampaging. It makes me think that, although Islamic terrorist candidates don't do thinks that American cops/agents notice, they probably show signs of alienation that their families notice. If terrorism is to be stopped, it will be families of these well-educated, unhappy young men who will be doing it.
|
trish |
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 10:59:30 [Permalink]
|
| Well, terrorists aren't necessarily islamic. They can be just people who use terror as a political (rather than a personal, psychological) weapon. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
 |
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 11:03:52 [Permalink]
|
Yep only 40% or so of suicide attacks are religiously motivated.
Only problem is that the rampage killer is a loner who snaps with usually no goal or a minor personal vendetta/suicidal, while these terrorists are group of individuals who are very close to each other and are seeking to impliment their ideals and are not nessisarily suicidal. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 11:15:05 [Permalink]
|
BigPapaSmurf said:Only problem is that the rampage killer is a loner who snaps with usually no goal or a minor personal vendetta/suicidal, while these terrorists are group of individuals who are very close to each other and are seeking to impliment their ideals and are not nessisarily suicidal
I thought that, at first, too. But really, what do you think Mohammad Atta really expected to happen on 9/12? Are the goals of terrorists [Islamic or not] any less vague that the Columbine boys' desire to call attention to the bullying that was perpetrated by the football jocks and their hangers on? We've been told since 9/11 that Islamic terrorists have specific goals. But other than a long-term vision of an Islamic world, what goal does any act of terror have? I have to wonder if the Islamists have more in common with other disaffected, educated men than they don't. I think that, just like someone who brings an Uzi to school, a suicide bomber is attracted to the mayhem immediately following the act, not long-term consequences in society as a whole.
|
trish |
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 11:41:44 [Permalink]
|
| I beg to differ, I honestly believe they think that each instance can help the cause. Just because each does not broadcast a list of goals beforehand doesnt mean they arent thinking big. However not all of those knew what their mission was, whilst the Trench Coat Mafia only wanted vengence against perceived wrongs and perhaps legendary status, I doubt they thought it would change the world. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
tomk80
SFN Regular
Netherlands
1278 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 11:45:21 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by trishran
BigPapaSmurf said:Only problem is that the rampage killer is a loner who snaps with usually no goal or a minor personal vendetta/suicidal, while these terrorists are group of individuals who are very close to each other and are seeking to impliment their ideals and are not nessisarily suicidal
I thought that, at first, too. But really, what do you think Mohammad Atta really expected to happen on 9/12? Are the goals of terrorists [Islamic or not] any less vague that the Columbine boys' desire to call attention to the bullying that was perpetrated by the football jocks and their hangers on? We've been told since 9/11 that Islamic terrorists have specific goals. But other than a long-term vision of an Islamic world, what goal does any act of terror have? I have to wonder if the Islamists have more in common with other disaffected, educated men than they don't. I think that, just like someone who brings an Uzi to school, a suicide bomber is attracted to the mayhem immediately following the act, not long-term consequences in society as a whole.
I read an article on this in the 'Volkskrant' (a dutch, daily newpaper). In the science section they had an article about someone who had investigated suicide bombers. He concluded that these people were in the first place motivated by anger and in the second place by the praise they think they will get from their peers. From what he could gather, they had very little thoughts on the 'future', both in idealistic or religious terms (as he put it, the '72 virgins in heaven' are only a bonus). |
Tom
`Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, `if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'
-Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Caroll- |
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/26/2005 : 11:53:45 [Permalink]
|
Yep, but really in this case(911) shouldnt we look at the views of the Master and not the Soldiers who would carry out ANY order, after all the Soldier types are choosen for their blind faith and that type usually has the ideals the Master gives them.
I agree most terrorists are fueled by anger, but that anger is molded and unleashed by the group, in most cases. Of course 72 virgins as incentive helps. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 12:07:34 [Permalink]
|
BigPapaSmurf, you are right about some terrorist activity is organized by groups - but there's a possibility that every culture has some people who are teetering on the edge of a rampage. Our society sees them as unhappy people who need help, but perhaps [certain] Islamic leaders are exploiting this same segment of the population by convincing them there is glory or political gain to be had by doing the same kind of senseless, random slaughter that isolated rampage killers engage in. [Dr Park Dietz says that the killing of a group of unrelated person by one rampager has been known throught history]
I also think 9/11 was in many ways an anomolous terror event - 19 guys participated. The Egyptian resort was another event with a relatively large group involved. But most terror attacks worldwide are done by isolated people that don't hook up to larger groups, such as the London transit bombers, Timothy McVeigh, Eric Rudolph.
I'm not saying that terrorists [Islamic, political, antiabortion, whatever McVeigh thought he was fighting] don't experience influence from other individuals and groups, or occasionally material help, like McVeigh did. But the vast majority act alone. |
trish |
|
|
|
BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 07/28/2005 : 12:16:11 [Permalink]
|
| Oh no duobt some terrorists are those who would be rampage killers without the guiding ethos, I just feel its too neat a catagory for terrorists because they vary so widely in what they do and why they do it... Take the Smiley face bomber, that guy was just nuts, but I dont think he wanted to kill anyone. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
|
|
|
trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 11:59:20 [Permalink]
|
BPS, who is the Smiley Face bomber? In Oregon there was a Smiley Face Killer, but he was a garden variety serial killer [most famous for a case in which a woman falsely confessed to one of his murders and was later exonerated]
Again, when I look in the newspaper, the organized group style of terrorism seems to be the minority of events [I may be reading a lousy newspaper]
I also think that we shouldn't just assume that terrorists are some new animal that we know nothing about. If we can find in terrorist behavior parallels with other forms of behavior, we might get better at predicting and preventing such crimes. |
trish |
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
