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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 08/06/2005 : 10:22:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Boron10
quote:
Originally posted by Kil
There is nothing in physics that suggests that any kind of electromagnetism can get “trapped in the environment.”
I feel obligated to correct this statement slightly. Ferromagnetism is a process that you describe; however, you need very specific kinds of rocks, and you need much stronger EM fields than the human body can produce. Also, as Ricky pointed out, a very small coronal mass ejection causes a greater environmental effect than anything the human body has ever released.
I stand corrected, slightly... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend
Australia
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2005 : 14:32:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Well..we are doing experiments
That is possibly the funniest thing I have ever seen from you Storm.
Thanks for the laugh, suprised you didn't hear my guffaw from accross the bay!
Experiments.... haha!
Me thinks this is Storms way of saying "You've chased me away". |
"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."
Bob Dylan
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2005 : 15:10:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Temperature change... electromagnetic fields .... surges in electrical equipment... These have known and been recorded to be affected in locales termed haunted....
These are not "known" to be any different in haunted locales, they are hypothesized to be affected by unknown means, although I know of no ghost hunters who actually 1) Are trained to use the equipment they carry, 2) do control readings at non-haunted locales, 3) have a testable theory about why such anomalous readings occur in certain locations, and 4) have any reliable method of tying these readings to ghosts.
Storm, has it ever occurred to you that some natural phenomenon may be responsible for hallucinations? Perhaps it is a site of seismic activity which produces an electrical field strong enough to affect equipment and disturb people's brain activity. Such a solution would explain both equipment failure and ghost sightings, but would rule out ghosts themselves. Geemack linked a few articles on the topic. Why did you ignore them? Why are you intent only on pursuing a single hypothesis--that ghosts are real and people see them?
quote:
I have had numerous experiences with power failure..even though batteries are new...It is almost as if the batteries become drained to the point of not functioning...yet after awhile they begin to function agian...usually upon moving from the haunted spot...Like I said I have had numerous experiences with this phenomenon...
So your equipment acts up in places. So what? What can you actually learn from that, Storm? People have been dragging electrical equipment into haunted locations for decades and claiming unusual results. Do you just plan on continuing to do that? Why, since it doesn't prove anything? How many times has your equipment failed in non-haunted locations? Oh, you don't bother to investigate non-haunted locations? Why not? How do you know your equipment failure is unusual then?
quote:
Does this mean ghost exist...well it is some good evidence toward the possibility.. due to the fact that this happens in locales which are said haunted..i.e. Apparitions,unusal noises, smells, knockings..
No, it is not good evidence. It is circumstantial speculation. You actually have no idea why your equipment fails or whether the various phenomena are even related to a single cause. I bet when you come into a place and wave your EMF detectors around you put on a good show. But don't kid yourself, you aren't actually studying anything.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 08/06/2005 15:15:38 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/06/2005 : 15:48:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dry_vby
quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Well..we are doing experiments
That is possibly the funniest thing I have ever seen from you Storm.
Thanks for the laugh, suprised you didn't hear my guffaw from accross the bay!
Experiments.... haha!
Me thinks this is Storms way of saying "You've chased me away".
Nope. Storm enjoys this sort of thing... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/08/2005 : 06:49:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
originally posted by Kil
quote:
And we are talking about such trace amounts, there is no device that can even measure it even if it is there.
Well..we are doing experiments with emf meters..which in my opinon can read some very interesting results..even if there is no device as of yet that does not mean the trace amounts are not there
Please provide proof that EMF fields in these situations are caused by ghosts.
This has been a sore spot of contention with me. Exactly no one has proven that EMF fields and ghosts are related. Perhaps a little ghost told SPR. The contention that EMF fields are caused by ghosts is decades old, but no one can pinpoint the study done which proves it. It has been manufactured out of wholecloth and the SPR swallowed it whole.
I have thought about this. It was one of the things that made me question the validity of ghost "investigations". You provide me with a website, book name (I have a library card), or any sort of reference to show evidence or proof that EMF fields are related to hauntings, or stop using it as evidence of hauntings.
It doesn't fly, Storm. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2005 : 17:42:40 [Permalink]
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Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
Storm, has it ever occurred to you that some natural phenomenon may be responsible for hallucinations?
Yes I have H... I think many of these phenomenon are labeled "Ghosts"..Why can't this phenomenon be real? Is it so hard to believe in the possibilities...I am not talking about conscious souls...but some type of residual energy left behind by those who once lived...
Originally posted by H. Humbert
quote:
. Geemack linked a few articles on the topic. Why did you ignore them? Why are you intent only on pursuing a single hypothesis--that ghosts are real and people see them?
I have not ignored these articles
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3044607.stm
This particular one I found is even closer to reaching the truth about ghosts...but then again Wiseman is only speculating..Just like others..Like me...
Originally Stated by Wiseman
quote:
People do have consistent experiences in consistent places, but I think that this is driven by visual factors mainly, and perhaps some other environmental cues," he said.
Think and perhaps sound like speculation to me...The fact is we do not really know what happens at these locations..I speculate residual energy of those who once lived.. But one thing I do agree with Wiseman about is this..
Originally posted By Wiseman
quote:
We found little if no evidence that people's prior knowledge mattered," said Dr Wiseman. "If anything, it made them veer away from having experiences in the known haunted sites."
Dr Wiseman and colleagues report their data in the British Journal of Psychology.
Sounds peered read to me.
Originally posted by Ricky
quote:
If you are talking about the word "energy" with the definition that is used in physics, the ability to do work, then you are pretty much flat out wrong, as more energy comes from the sun then will ever come from our bodies, and therefore we should be seeing these ghosts all the time.
I am not talking about the Sun..I am talking about Human Beings..For it is them that are mostly seen..Although Animals and even cars ..boats.. have been encountered..but none more than The Human Being
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend
Australia
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2005 : 18:00:33 [Permalink]
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Ghost ships like "The Flying Dutchman"?
Ghost cars like in "My mother, the car"?
Is'nt tha fact that you quoted the British Journal of PSYCHOLOGY a clue here.
Most legitimate research into the ghost phenomanon is done from the perspective of trying to figure out why people beleive in these things, why it is so important to some people to beleive in these things and what to do about people who beleive in these things. |
"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."
Bob Dylan
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Storm
SFN Regular
USA
708 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2005 : 18:28:56 [Permalink]
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This is a great article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3046179.stm
Originally posted by dr vby
quote:
Is'nt tha fact that you quoted the British Journal of PSYCHOLOGY a clue here.
the existing theory that dominates science explains ghosts as hallucinations..misinterpertations..all in the mind..so it is natural that one would find these types of studies in Journals of Psychology..
Originally posted by dr vby
quote:
Most legitimate research into the ghost phenomanon is done from the perspective of trying to figure out why people beleive in these things,
I don't believe that
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
I have thought about this. It was one of the things that made me question the validity of ghost "investigations". You provide me with a website, book name (I have a library card), or any sort of reference to show evidence or proof that EMF fields are related to hauntings, or stop using it as evidence of hauntings.
It doesn't fly, Storm.
Read this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3046179.stm
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Dry_vby
Skeptic Friend
Australia
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2005 : 18:43:56 [Permalink]
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I went to this site:
http://atl-perimeter.hiexpress.com/pages/ghosts.html
and although they are really into this stuff, for obvious reasons, even they concede:
"QUESTION: What is the probability that just one of all the reported and unreported ghost sightings throughout history is authentic?
ANSWER: > billion: 1 FOR (= " Greater than a billion to 1 probability FOR the existence of a single authentic ghost.")"
Even within the feild itself, ghosts are no longer accepted as a phenomonon:
"Are ghosts real?
The prevailing view today is that the mysterious physical effects historically attributed to ghosts (disembodied spirits), such as movement of objects, strange sounds, enigmatic odors, and failure of electrical equipment, are actually poltergeist phenomena (see below). Apparitions that occur without accompanying physical effects are thought to be either normal psychological effects (i.e., hallucinations), or possibly genuine information mediated by psi."
From:
http://www.psiresearch.org/para3.html#fifteena
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"I'll go along with the charade
Until I can think my way out.
I know it was all a big joke
Whatever it was about."
Bob Dylan
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2005 : 23:28:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
but some type of residual energy left behind by those who once lived...
If this were true, if energy behaved in the way you WISH it would, then first, we'd be living in a universe with entirely different rules, and second... with the massive number of people who die every day the world should be OVERWHELMED with ghosts.
If you bust out the "stressfull circumstances of death" line, then I can only ask you why Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and the German concentration camps (I have been to Hiroshima, Dachau, and Bergen Belson) aren't overrun with ghosts?
There is no reasoning with you on this subject though, obviously.
I have gone from being irritated with you, Storm, to feeling pity for you. For whatever reason you need this ghost fantasy of yours to be true.... and it has blinded you to the reality of the world we live in.
Sad, really.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2005 : 06:35:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
I have thought about this. It was one of the things that made me question the validity of ghost "investigations". You provide me with a website, book name (I have a library card), or any sort of reference to show evidence or proof that EMF fields are related to hauntings, or stop using it as evidence of hauntings.
It doesn't fly, Storm.
Read this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3046179.stm
Oh, this is delicious.
The article you reference shows that EM fields interact with the brain and trigger sections which cause fear and apprehension in the subject. It shows how these fields may explain the "sightings" not link EM and ghosts.
There are naturally occuring EM fields. It explains the appearance of hauntings without being evidence of ghosts. The SPR takes what the scientist has discovered and reverse the flow. They go from an assumption that ghosts exist and then warp the data around it.
This article does nothing to support your contention and actually hurts it.
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2005 : 09:14:03 [Permalink]
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Where Storm gets into trouble is that she is not unbiased in her investigations. She is absolutely convinced of the existence of ghosts so her quest is to find out why they happen.
Susan Blackmore went looking for NDE's because she believed that there was enough evidence for those experiences, at least anecdotal, to warrant a scientific investigation. The thing is, Blackmore did not fall into the trap of allowing her bias or beliefs to get in the way of the scientific method. In the end, she concluded that it was unlikely an NDE was anything more than a naturally caused hallucination.
Storm, on the other hand is committed to her beliefs. She is unwilling to seriously consider the possibility that ghosts simply don't happen.
quote:
Me:
And yet you will not include in your own speculations the possibility that they don't exist.
Storm's reply:
Oh I have included that...at one time though Kil not now...not after what I have investigated..what I have researched...The phenomenon of "Ghosts"..exist..those theories that have been speculated about for the last hundered or so years of their existence are closer to the truth..than the speculated theory of their non existence..
A simple test of bias was suggested by Ricky.
quote:
Ricky:
Have you ever thought about trying this experiment, Storm?
Take a group of ghost hunters, and find a building that has no history with ghosts or paranormal phenomena. Tell them that 3 children were murdered brutally, and that people have reported seeing weird things. Send them in to investigate.
I would be very interested to hear what they come up with.
Testing the power of belief in the area of ghost investigations is not something Storm is interested pursuing. An impartial investigator would leave no stone unturned.
My point is this; Storm is not interested in applying the scientific method to her research. And she does not get that unless she does, nothing she is doing in her investigations will be considered by anyone with a scintilla of knowledge on the subject as anything more than speculation and pseudo science.
She will fail as a researcher until she gets that certain obligations come with doing research, her bias notwithstanding.
That she hangs around this site does give me hope. She is willing to be challenged. Unfortunately, so far, she has missed that the main objections to her speculations are possibly valid and is so far unwilling to seriously consider the implausibility of the science she is suggesting. Since she is already convinced that ghosts exist, that necessary part of her investigation is not being explored.
Anecdotal evidence and even personal experience could be a motivator for further investigation as Blackmore demonstrated. But anecdotal evidence and personal experience should never be counted on to draw conclusions from. They are only a starting point. The moment that kind of evidence takes precedence over scientific protocol, science has left the building…
Either Storm will take the high road as an investigator, or she will join her peers and be dismissed as an investigator and a scientist. She will then accuse skeptics and scientists of being closed-minded debunkers. In fact, she already has…
Edited slightly...
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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astropin
SFN Regular
USA
970 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2005 : 09:30:23 [Permalink]
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| That is a very, very good summation Kil. |
I would rather face a cold reality than delude myself with comforting fantasies.
You are free to believe what you want to believe and I am free to ridicule you for it.
Atheism:
The result of an unbiased and rational search for the truth.
Infinitus est numerus stultorum |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2005 : 18:07:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
[Anecdotal evidence and personal experience] are only a starting point.
And perhaps it should be noted that the starting point occured over 100 years ago, and investigators have nothing to show for it. Storm knows this, but dismisses it with the assumption that science will eventually catch up to her beliefs and validate them. Meanwhile, others who share her beliefs are saying "we've got tons of theories, but no data, so something is terribly wrong."
I've got a feeling that in the not-too-distant future, a "major" ghost-hunting group will formally disband, just like the main UFO group in Britain did a few years ago (due to a steep drop in UFO sightings despite the ubiquity of video cameras). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2005 : 19:55:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm
Yes I have H... I think many of these phenomenon are labeled "Ghosts"..Why can't this phenomenon be real? Is it so hard to believe in the possibilities...I am not talking about conscious souls...but some type of residual energy left behind by those who once lived...
Storm, what, aside from pure speculation on your part, leads you to believe that this "natural phenomenon" has anything at all to do with dead people? You mentioned things like ghosts ships. Were certain ships traumatized by their sinking and leave behind "residual energy?" Since "residual energy" is not accurately defined, breaks all known laws of physics, and is currently entirely undetectable, I suggest you work on another theory.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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