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trishran
Skeptic Friend
USA
196 Posts |
 Posted - 07/29/2005 : 13:22:12
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I have read various references to "irreducible complexity" in arguments in favor of creationism or "intelligent design". However, I notice that the examples given to illustrate the premise are always *man-made*, such as a wristwatch. If irreducilble complexity is a principle that is evident in the natural world, why do creationism/intelligent design proponents never use an example from the natural world?
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trish |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 13:35:04 [Permalink]
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| They do. They often use the eye, ears and such things as spiral flagellum as proof if irreducible complexity. There are many other natural things they point to as proof. I would get you links but I have to go back to work.... |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 14:09:04 [Permalink]
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This might help. It also has a lot of associated links.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 07/29/2005 : 18:03:11 [Permalink]
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Yeah, there have been lots of alleged biological examples of irreducible complexity, but the whole argument boils down to a demand from the creationists/IDists that scientists be able to explain precisely the complete evolutionary history of each, or else admit that "evolution can't explain them."
It is, of course, a silly demand. If agreed to, it means that since we cannot explain in molecular detail the growth of fertilized egg to infant, all of our research about embryos is worthless nonsense, which itself is patently absurd.
Anyway, even the "champions" of irreducible complexity are backing away from it now, since every step scientists make towards explaining the famous examples means the creationist god gets that much smaller, to fit into a tinier "gap" in our knowledge. If I remeber correctly, even Behe himself has admitted, recently, that mutation and natural selection can create irreducible complexity. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 01:43:39 [Permalink]
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| Is there a link available to the place where Behe admits evolution of irreducibly complex systems is possible? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Plyss
Skeptic Friend
Netherlands
231 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 08:18:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
They do. They often use the eye, ears and such things as spiral flagellum as proof if irreducible complexity. There are many other natural things they point to as proof. I would get you links but I have to go back to work....
The flagellum-is-designed argument has a nasty way of backfiring for the ID crowd.
If the Designer (or Designers, why always the singular?) made it, then he is directly responsible for all the deaths caused by infection by organisms that use the flagellum in pathogenesis (see e.g. Arora et al, 2005.)
The Designer is a Jerk. |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 10:13:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Plyss
If the Designer (or Designers, why always the singular?) made it, then he is directly responsible for all the deaths caused by infection by organisms that use the flagellum in pathogenesis (see e.g. Arora et al, 2005.)
The Designer is a Jerk.
I suspect that the designer is into survival of the fittest.
But really, I believe they should just return to hand waving, obfuscation, and denial. They are just not very good at science. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 07/30/2005 : 13:37:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
Originally posted by Plyss
If the Designer (or Designers, why always the singular?) made it, then he is directly responsible for all the deaths caused by infection by organisms that use the flagellum in pathogenesis (see e.g. Arora et al, 2005.)
The Designer is a Jerk.
I suspect that the designer is into survival of the fittest.
But really, I believe they should just return to hand waving, obfuscation, and denial. They are just not very good at science.
A truth!
What it is, they can not or will not grasp the concept that just because we don't know exactly how the evolution of some certain organism took place, it doesn't mean that we will never know. It further doesn't even imply that some supernatural entity is responsible.
The great incongruity here is that automatically assigning it all to the whims and fancy of some god or other is far more preposterous than exacting, scientific studies, even when those studies fail for a lack of supporting evidence, as some do.
The only things that are known to be irreductably complex are the rat-maze thought process' of the YECs and IDers.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 07/31/2005 : 20:51:50 [Permalink]
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quote:
filthy wrote:
The only things that are known to be irreductably complex are the rat-maze thought process' of the YECs and IDers.
Shouldn't that be reducibly uncomplex? |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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