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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
 Posted - 09/15/2005 : 06:56:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Coercive? How are children punished if they do not say the pledge?
Peer pressure. Pressure from an authority (i.e. the teacher). Punishment can come in many forms - jokes from fellow classmates, maybe the teacher treats them differently, who knows? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 07:00:54 [Permalink]
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| This bit will be handy in the next campaign -- trot it out in church and fire up all the faithful to go out and vote to save their children from the evil athiests. And they will. |
-Chaloobi
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 08:42:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
from that RRforum
The thoughts of our Founders was to keep the Federal Government out of religion. It wasn't to keep religion out of the Government.
They didn't want the Federal Government establishing a national religion. That's VERY different than the false idea of a separation of church and state.
Oookay. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 09:30:39 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote: Coercive? How are children punished if they do not say the pledge?
You've got to be kidding. All you have to do is imagine the situation from the point of view of a grade school kid and you'll have your answer. Kids can usually excuse themselves from the Pledge, or class-led prayers for that matter. The reason those things are illegal is because to excuse yourself from those things is so clearly ostracizing. It's like putting a sign on little Johnny or Suzie that says “Atheist”. Not to mention that the teacher is in acting in a role of authority, so even if a student excuse him or herself, they witness a representative of the public school system conducting a ritual that affirms the existence of God on a daily basis.
When I was a counselor at Camp Quest in 2002, I worked with a lot of kids from the south, and some of them had pretty sad stories of being picked on by both adults (including teachers at public schools!) and other children for their atheism. The story about the Pledge of Allegiance broke during that week, and the story was read from the paper during lunch. The campers spontaneously broke into cheers.
Robb also wrote: Anyway, we should have this much passion about our childrens quality of education. How do we improve the education system? This is an issue I would like to get as much attention as God in school.
Cheap shot, Robb. Plenty of us here on skeptic friends do act on behalf of other public school issues. But that's not the topic at hand, so obviously we're not spontaneously expressing our concerns for other issues here. You don't win points in the debate for changing the subject.
Also, it takes two to tango. George Herbert Walker Bush once said, while VP, “No, I don't think atheists are patriots. This is one nation under God.” And I don't know how many times I've heard evangelical Christians cite the Pledge of Allegiance as evidence that the US is a Christian Nation when they are clamoring for other things in public policy and law that would affect me and my friends and my family. If the Pledge really is no big deal, when so are evangelicals freaking out so much about it? Why isn't everyone just shrugging and saying, "Oh, gee, we should restore that Pledge to its original form and then we won't have a problem." Religious freedom is a big deal. You fight the small battles in the hopes that you'll never have to fight the big ones.
Robb also said: Also, would reciting the gettysberg address or the declaration of independance be a coercive requirement to affirm God?
The Gettysberg address doesn't even mention God, so no, it would be a coercive requirement to affirm the existence of God. Neither would reciting Humpty Dumpty.
The Declaration of Independence is over 1300 words; no child could memorize it! While it is an essential part of US History, it is not a document that is part of the legal founding of the US, so being said every morning by school children would be rather out of place, even aside from the fact that it is far too long for that. It refers to “Nature's God” and the “Creator”, and in context, those weren't really referring necessarily to the Christian God, but the God of deism, and they were added primarily to give additional authority to the Declaration. However, we see how “ceremonial deism” has been abused by judges who ignore the scores of Christians gnashing their teeth outside while decisions were being made about the Ten Commandments. Would students be made to understand that distinction? Methinks not. I don't think it would pass the Lemon test. But maybe. All depends on how it is implemented.
The purpose of the Lemon test is to determine when a law has the effect of establishing religion. The test has served as the foundation for many of the Court's post-1971 establishment clause rulings. As articulated by Chief Justice Burger, the test has three parts:
“First, the statute must have a secular leg |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/15/2005 09:38:26 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 10:10:21 [Permalink]
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I like this "person's" take:
Vindictive little *** isn't she?
Of course, it's opinion is shared on that board, check out the 7th post.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 09/15/2005 10:12:33 |
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the_ignored
SFN Addict
2562 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 10:34:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by moakley
quote:
... DEATH TO SATAN.
At a personal level, I have already killed Satan. And it really wasn't that difficult.
Are you talking about this "Satan", also known as: Asmodeus, The Dark Lord of Nessus, King of the Nine Hells, Lord of the Ninth, Lord of the Nine, the Dark Lord, Dark Lord of Baator, Lucifer, the Devil, the Nameless One, the Great Adversary, the Dark One, the Wyrm, Great Beast That is Called Dragon, Master of the Ninth Hell, Lord of the Pit, Angel of the Bottomless Pit, Prince of Darkness, Father of Lies, Prince of this World, Destroyer of Kings, Bright Morning Star, Deceiver of Nations, Despoiler of Worlds, The Overlord, Melchiresha, Asmada'i, Satanael, Lucifer Morningstar, Apollyon the Destroyer, Abbadon, Iblis, Shaitan, He Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken (whoops, too late now!), the Great Serpent, Beelzebub, Lord of the Nine Hells, Dread Lord, King of Devils, the Tempter, the Great Deceiver??
If you think that you've killed HIM, guess again!
quote:
Worshipers: baatezu, evil humanoids, evil loremasters, those who seek forbidden knowledge, tieflings, those who seek power, tyrants, those who abuse power, the power-hungry, aristocrats, diabloists
And of course, anyone who doesn't worship "The One True God" by default...all those other "classifications" of worshippers are just the obvious ones, to fool us into thinking: "so long as we're not one of THOSE, we can't possibly wind up spending eternity with THIS guy!
 Fools! I'll He'll have you ALL!
His Challenge Rating is 89!! Do you really think that you can take him out?!
Just in case you're still operating under the delusion that you can go toe to toe with this guy, read on!
You haven't killed him, you've been played for a fool!
Tim LaHaye, your "Beast" is a WIMP compared to the real thing! Rapture this!
Ok, rant off now.
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>From: enuffenuff@fastmail.fm
(excerpt follows):
> I'm looking to teach these two bastards a lesson they'll never forget.
> Personal visit by mates of mine. No violence, just a wee little chat.
>
> **** has also committed more crimes than you can count with his
> incitement of hatred against a religion. That law came in about 2007
> much to ****'s ignorance. That is fact and his writing will become well
> know as well as him becoming a publicly known icon of hatred.
>
> Good luck with that fuckwit. And Reynold, fucking run, and don't stop.
> Disappear would be best as it was you who dared to attack me on my
> illness knowing nothing of the cause. You disgust me and you are top of
> the list boy. Again, no violence. Just regular reminders of who's there
> and visits to see you are behaving. Nothing scary in reality. But I'd
> still disappear if I was you.
What brought that on? this. Original posting here.
Another example of this guy's lunacy here. |
| Edited by - the_ignored on 09/15/2005 10:39:31 |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 11:03:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by chaloobi...
[...] fire up all the faithful to go out and vote to save their children from the evil athiests. And they will.
They did last time, too. And they voted for George W. Bush, the one person who has, from within the US government, single-handedly through negligence and incompetence, done more damage to the integrity of the United States and the quality of life for its citizens than even other entire nations have been able to do from the outside.quote:
Originally posted by Robb...
Coercive? How are children punished if they do not say the pledge?
In June 2002, the 9th Circuit ruled in Newdow v. U.S. Congress that the 1954 law adding the words "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance was unconstitutional. Judge Alfred T. Goodwin penned the panel decision in that case.quote:
Judge Goodwin wrote...
The coercive effect of this policy is particularly pronounced in the school setting given the age and impressionability of schoolchildren, and their understanding that they are required to adhere to the norms set by their school, their teacher and their fellow students.
That's how it's coercive.
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Robb
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 11:10:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
You've got to be kidding. All you have to do is imagine the situation from the point of view of a grade school kid and you'll have your answer. Kids can usually excuse themselves from the Pledge, or class-led prayers for that matter. The reason those things are illegal is because to excuse yourself from those things is so clearly ostracizing. It's like putting a sign on little Johnny or Suzie that says “Atheist”. Not to mention that the teacher is in acting in a role of authority, so even if a student excuse him or herself, they witness a representative of the public school system conducting a ritual that affirms the existence of God on a daily basis.
You forgot to post my comments before I wrote this:
quote:
I don't care if under God is said or not. I will teach my children about God and patriotism at home. As long as they can pray or mention God when they have free time in school I don't care.
What I was saying is that coercive is a loaded word meant for political gain. I think that the kids should not be in the middle of this. I would agree to take under God out of the pledge so the kids do not have the pressure on them to make a decision about this.
quote:
Robb also wrote: Anyway, we should have this much passion about our childrens quality of education. How do we improve the education system? This is an issue I would like to get as much attention as God in school.Cheap shot, Robb. Plenty of us here on skeptic friends do act on behalf of other public school issues. But that's not the topic at hand, so obviously we're not spontaneously expressing our concerns for other issues here. You don't win points in the debate for changing the subject.
I was not taking a cheap shot, I was stating that most people on both sides of the issue seem more concerned about two words than the quality of the education in our schools. I did not mean that this thread should not be continued. This is the appropriate place to discuss this. Sorry if anyone took offense.
quote:
Also, it takes two to tango. George Herbert Walker Bush once said, while VP, “No, I don't think atheists are patriots. This is one nation under God.” And I don't know how many times I've heard evangelical Christians cite the Pledge of Allegiance as evidence that the US is a Christian Nation when they are clamoring for other things in public policy and law that would affect me and my friends and my family. If the Pledge really is no big deal, when so are evangelicals freaking out so much about it? Why isn't everyone just shrugging and saying, "Oh, gee, we should restore that Pledge to its original form and then we won't have a problem." Religious freedom is a big deal. You fight the small battles in the hopes that you'll never have to fight the big ones.
All I can say that it is not a big deal to me. The home is the proper place to teach about God, not the schools. I think that many Christians are worried that no mention of God will be allowed in public places some day.quote:
Robb also said: Also, would reciting the gettysbe |
Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master. - George Washington |
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chaloobi
SFN Regular
1620 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 11:56:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeMack
They did last time, too. And they voted for George W. Bush, the one person who has, from within the US government, single-handedly through negligence and incompetence, done more damage to the integrity of the United States and the quality of life for its citizens than even other entire nations have been able to do from the outside.
Such is the power of the wedge issue to redirect, misdirect and deceive the public. That's the way they get elected even though their policies are in general very damaging to the majority of US citizens. |
-Chaloobi
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| Edited by - chaloobi on 09/15/2005 11:59:01 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 13:48:20 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Making it part of a ritual that students are compelled to engage in by both authority and peer pressure demeans both those who might not want to make the pledge and those who are genuinely patriotic.
And let's not lock ourselves into a false dichotomy: Just because you don't join everyone else every morning in making the pledge does not mean that you're any less patriotic than those who do. Sometimes even more so, because you realise that the pledge itself is just one of many ways to express your patriotism. You may think it's better to do something patriotic than just saying you are a patriot (and do nothing). |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 22:10:13 [Permalink]
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Robb wrote (about the Declaration of Independence) I was only talking about reading it in class not memorizing it.
Of course I don't think kids shouldn't read the Declaration of Independence, or any other important historical document. Reading it is not the same as pledging. One is learning about something someone else said. The other is making a personal statement of belief.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2005 : 22:25:50 [Permalink]
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CORRECTION: Apparently there are 5 different copies of the Gettysburg Address. Four of them do not include "under God" and the fifth one does. (For details see wikipedia's entry on "Gettysburg Address".) It seems most likely that he actually read the first version, but wrote the fifth for "Autograph Leaves", and it is the only copy that he signed, so it is the most often quoted copy.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/15/2005 22:28:38 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2005 : 11:16:35 [Permalink]
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| So which of them is the official copy? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2005 : 16:45:42 [Permalink]
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| Official copy? They are all genuine documents. Like I said, it is thought that the first one (without "under God") is the one he actually read, and that the fifth one (the only one of the five with "under God" is a later revision that Lincoln wrote out and signed for the Autograph Leaves. The National Archive online puts forth the transcript of the first, so I imagine that is the "official" one. Though I'm not totally sure what you mean. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/18/2005 16:46:17 |
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