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irichc
New Member
2 Posts |
 Posted - 09/17/2005 : 13:00:13
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It's quite obvious that we have somehow fallen in the mud from which we were created. It suffices to admit that a natural law exists to appreciate to what extent is the human kind fulfilling it without coaction -fear or hope- in general terms. We can find this law in the common ground of the main religions of the world. My wife, an ex-Buddhist and a Christian nowadays, explained me about the five precepts that every normal man has to observe in her previous creed: 1) don't kill life, 2) don't steal, 3) don't fornicate, 4) don't lie and 5) don't get drunk. The first four points depend on the last one, understood in a wide sense as keeping your consciousness against passion's attack. This and infinite more, that is to say, every natural moral rule -she added- can be summarized in Christian love.
However, if we redefine the first precept as "don't kill without a fair reason" (for instance, protecting an equal good that we cannot otherwise save), none of them is violated by beasts in most cases. That's admirable and should move us to reflection: they are not rational, but they can satisfy a rational law. Never the less, we do it backwards from them, since we break the moral law continuously, and we would do it more often if there was no law or no custom forcing us to reconsider the benefits of being wicked.
Certainly, the stupid creatures slavered by us never make a war, and by the way not usually a war to death, but only for defending themselves from imminent dangers, fight with other predators in order to survive or rival with members of the same species when trying to get a female for later reproduction. They don't love any food not coming from their work. There is no hypocrisy in their kind. They avoid vague sex and waste of energy produced by it. They despise every superfluous pleasure.
Thus, we can deduce that, knowing the existence of this eternal law that even beasts are experts with, and being aware of the man, the most rational creature walking on the Earth, infringing it as he was totally ignorant; in regard of the everlasting rule written in our heart that everyone can read, I say, we can infer that something obnubilates our intelligence and moral sense in a permanent way, preventing us of being faithful to it and naturally perfect.
We can find, I don't deny it, animals whose behaviour -regular or sporadic- seem to break natural principles. But they are just the exception confirming the rule, while a good man is an exception for the whole human race. If crime was something unusual and extraordinary, laws wouldn't be needed at all, because law -Latins said- doesn't care about the insignificant.
What is, then, ruining our understanding and making us be beneath wild animals? Might it be our free will? This is similar to blaming knife for the slash. It is not for the sake of our consciousness that we are falling in the sin, but despite of it. Our oppression, then, isn't in the will, as buddhist think; more likely it's previous to its stimulus. Theologians referred to the original sin when designating this shameful prostration. Islam rejects it, and this should be enough to prove this religion wrong. But it is not our commitment now.
Cheers.
Daniel.
Theological Miscellany (in Spanish):
http://www.miscelaneateologica.tk
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2005 : 13:49:22 [Permalink]
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Welcome to SFN, irichc.
quote:
Originally posted by irichc
However, if we redefine the first precept as "don't kill without a fair reason" (for instance, protecting an equal good that we cannot otherwise save), none of them is violated by beasts in most cases. That's admirable and should move us to reflection: they are not rational, but they can satisfy a rational law.
Is killing a rival because you desire their resources (land, food sources, mates) a "fair reason?" If not, then animals kill all the time for unfair reasons. If so, then man is no different than animals in this respect, barring indivuals who are mentally diseased. ("Drunk" by your definitions.)
quote:
Certainly, the stupid creatures slavered by us never make a war, and by the way not usually a war to death...
What? You must not know much about animals. Have you never seen armies of ants engage one another in warfare? Chimpanzees will murder other troupes as well. Really, the examples of animal "murder" are endless.
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They don't love any food not coming from their work.
How would you know? As far as I can see, horses "love" sugarcubes despite their inability to make them.
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There is no hypocrisy in their kind.
Hypocrisy is defined as "a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not." There are clear examples of animals "feigning to be what one is not" including mimickry, trickery, camouflage, subterfuge, and dishonesty.
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They avoid vague sex and waste of energy produced by it.
Not all species.
quote:
They despise every superfluous pleasure.
My dog does not despise having its belly rubbed so far as I can tell.
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Thus, we can deduce that, knowing the existence of this eternal law that even beasts are experts with, and being aware of the man, the most rational creature walking on the Earth, infringing it as he was totally ignorant; in regard of the everlasting rule written in our heart that everyone can read, I say, we can infer that something obnubilates our intelligence and moral sense in a permanent way, preventing us of being faithful to it and naturally perfect.
You haven't "deduced" any such law, you've just decided to exclude many, many examples (not just exceptions) which do not conform to your preconceived notions of how thing should be.
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What is, then, ruining our understanding and making us be beneath wild animals? Might it be our free will? This is similar to blaming knife for the slash. It is not for the sake of our consciousness that we are falling in the sin, but despite of it. Our oppression, then, isn't in the will, as buddhist think; more likely it's previous to its stimulus. Theologians referred to the original sin when designating this shameful prostration. Islam rejects it, and this should be enough to prove this religion wrong. But it is not our commitment now.
Lol. Yeah, the Christian concept of Original Sin certainly is the only reasonable explanation if the world worked the way you claim it does. Unfortunately for you (and all Christians), it doesn't.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/17/2005 15:17:06 |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2005 : 14:38:42 [Permalink]
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| I'm curious about your definition of 'vague sex'. Care to elaborate? |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2005 : 15:09:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
I'm curious about your definition of 'vague sex'. Care to elaborate?
Now, why did I know you'd ask that?
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2005 : 15:13:10 [Permalink]
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A "real" natural law should not have exceptions.
Any definition of the natural law should include mechanisms that explain the seemingly (but not actual) exceptions. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2005 : 15:22:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
I'm curious about your definition of 'vague sex'. Care to elaborate?
Now, why did I know you'd ask that?
Because... you have very wrong ideas about my pure, virginal self?
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"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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| Edited by - Siberia on 09/17/2005 15:29:02 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2005 : 15:41:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
They avoid vague sex and waste of energy produced by it.
Heh, have you ever seen toads spawning? Talk about a clusterfuck! This also applies to some boids such as anacondas. The females of this species are huge and when in season might be engulfed by a dozen or more of the smaller males, all trying desperatly to get lucky.
As most vertebrates breed seasonally, when the season comes, they breed with any other of the species that they can get to hold still for it.
Of course, there are exceptions; wolves, for example, have a firm, social hiarchy wherein only the pack's alpha male and female breed, and the whole pack helps to raise the offspring. Also, naked mole rats, having a hive society, the only breeders are the queen and a few, select males. All others in the colony are workers or soldiers, as steril as their honeybee and termite counterparts.
One must be very careful when making statements about reproduction strategies in nature...
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2005 : 17:40:34 [Permalink]
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What a shitty view of humanity.
while a good man is an exception for the whole human race. If crime was something unusual and extraordinary, laws wouldn't be needed at all, because law -Latins said- doesn't care about the insignificant.
I take issue with this claim. Most people commit far more good (acts intended to benefit the world or that increase happiness) than evil (acts intended to harm the world or than increase suffering). And while crimes are not extraordinary, we are not overwhelmed with criminals. If we released all the people who are sitting in prison cells in America who did not commit crimes against another persons's property or person (i.e. immigration and non-violent drug crimes) we'd be left with less than half of all inmates.
But that aside, you aren't basing your moral law on anything objective. There is a problem claiming that any moral rules are more than mere tendencies, because natural laws cannot be broken. And actually, breaking the moral laws that you have set out can benefit an individual in various circumstances, and that is all you need to explain why people do "bad" things. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 09/17/2005 17:42:30 |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2005 : 19:47:30 [Permalink]
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Irichc said quote:
They [animals] avoid vague sex and waste of energy produced by it.
These animals seem to disagree with this conclusion.
quote:
The species [pygmy chimpazees] is best characterized as female-centered and egalitarian and as one that substitutes sex for aggression. Whereas in most other species sexual behavior is a fairly distinct category, in the bonobo it is part and parcel of social relations--and not just between males and females. Bonobos engage in sex in virtually every partner combination (although such contact among close family members may be suppressed).
quote:
Dolphins are indiscriminately amorous. They have sex with the opposite gender, the same
gender, and engage in masturbation with inanimate objects. Female dolphins have been
observed suctioning things (like plates) to their genital region when they are feeling amorous.
They also seem to enjoy buzzing on eachothers' slits using echolocation.
That last line really cracks me up. Seems like only the smartest animals are horn dogs.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/18/2005 : 22:41:13 [Permalink]
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I'll be surprised if that isn't a post and go. Seems like that preachy nonsense is pasted around on forums all the time. I suspect it is a personality defect that leads one to use forums as the pulpit one doesn't otherwise have.
Evil sinners repent! |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2005 : 01:34:16 [Permalink]
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| My suspicions of a post and go are growing. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2005 : 02:16:08 [Permalink]
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Yeah, it's another drive-by. He/she might come back, but I doubt it.
Sort'a brings up the question of: why bother? Seems to me that if one must make a statement, one should stick around to defend it, if defense it needs. Where's the sense, or indeed the fun, in running away?
I give bigbrain top marks for never chickening out, red herrings and so forth not withstanding.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2005 : 12:06:05 [Permalink]
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| I think some, (most?), of these guys think they are preaching to the masses. I don't think an intellectual discussion on the topic is part of the drill at all. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2005 : 12:52:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I think some, (most?), of these guys think they are preaching to the masses. I don't think an intellectual discussion on the topic is part of the drill at all.
They believe any further discussion is unneccessary, since they already have it all figured out. All that's left to do is spread the message.
It's the spiritual equivalent of penis enlargement spam emails. "I hear you have a problem. Well, I have the solution! Act now!" They just throw it out there and hope maybe 2% of the people who stumble across it are pathetic enough grasp at such a straw.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 09/20/2005 13:18:15 |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2005 : 13:06:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
I think some, (most?), of these guys think they are preaching to the masses. I don't think an intellectual discussion on the topic is part of the drill at all.
Probably true....
Boy howdy, do they ever come to the wrong place!
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2005 : 20:41:34 [Permalink]
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| That sounds earily like the stuff I heard from a hard-core vegetarian gal (not that vegie's a bad idea- probably healthy although I like burgers myself- she just went a little overboard on the philisophical side of it, in my opinion.) "We do bad things- why can't we be more like the animals?" Seems to me we do "bad things" because basically, we ARE animals. |
Ron White |
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