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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
 Posted - 05/19/2001 : 15:09:33 [Permalink]
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The "faith-based" stuff scares me too. I already give plenty to charity, some secular, some religous. I base it on what the organization accomplishes, not if they genuflect. However, I don't like the idea of the guvmint taking my tax dollars and deciding to give it to churches. If the "faith-based initiative" isn't another way of saying "religous tax", then I don't know what it is.
Lisa
Who do you serve? Who do you trust? |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05/19/2001 : 16:16:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
I believe the best thing someone can do when presented with a post like that made by Jar-Jar is to find a way to argue from authority and send Jar-Jar on his merry way to talkorigins.org or find compelling arguments from that site and post them here as responses.
You are, of course, completely correct. Sometimes I can't help myself(I am a chronic smart-ass)and wish I had said something different later on. There is something to be said for not reaching for the Reply to Topic link too fast or at least not hitting send without making sure you are saying what you mean to say.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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broven
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2001 : 10:18:41 [Permalink]
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Boy, when I first came here and read some of the threads, I thought you all sounded like intelligent people who would be fun to have around. But after reading this particular thread, I feel like you all wouldn't give me the time of day, just because I happen to believe in God.
As for myself, I think I'm a little more laid back on my views. I have close friends that are Christian, Jewish, Atheist and even one frien who's into some kind of Zen thing. To each his own. I could be wrong but I don't remember reading in the Bible anything about disciples "forcing" their views on anyone else. So I don't try to. If someone is interested, they can ask. But, I don't think I'm an idiot or a dolt for believing (and yes, it is by faith. . .sorry if that worries any of you)
For what it's worth, you all still strike me as intelligent. Anyway, that's my two cents.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2001 : 10:34:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
But after reading this particular thread, I feel like you all wouldn't give me the time of day, just because I happen to believe in God.
broven: It's more the way Jar posted than his beliefs. My mother is a strong catholic I don't hold that against anyone. What burns most is the manner in which the subject is broached.
Everyone here would enjoy intelligent debate regarding religion or any other subject.
quote:
I could be wrong but I don't remember reading in the Bible anything about disciples "forcing" their views on anyone else.
Unfortunately, many fundamentalists and some mainstream christians view this line of reasoning as their duty to save the pagan masses from the fires of hell. It may not have been the original intent of the writers of the bible, however, it has been the intent of the church from early in its formation. Of note, over 3 million people were tried, convicted and excuted as chrisitanity swept across Europe. There are those who still assume that any belief outside their own is anathema and therefore subject to conversion or destruction by any means possible.
No not all feel this way, however, those that do seem to scream the loudest.
Spinnin' my wheels and gettin' no where - fast |
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broven
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2001 : 11:06:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
[ There are those who still assume that any belief outside their own is anathema and therefore subject to conversion or destruction by any means possible.
I take your point, and I agree with you. It just seemed to me that many of the evolutionists responses were motivated by a similar (albeit opposite) view point. Convert the poor christians.
Oh well, my Dad always told me if you want an argument you can't win, try politics or religion. The truth of that has been proven time and again. 
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Slater
SFN Regular
USA
1668 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2001 : 14:49:32 [Permalink]
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…It just seemed to me that many of the evolutionists responses were motivated by a similar (albeit opposite) view point. Convert the poor christians.
First of all you have to understand what this place (site) is. It's a forum.
You put forward ideas here not just to state them but to allow other people to respond to them.
For instance the first idea I posted concerned the creation of Christianity. Comparative mythology has long been an interest of mine. My theory, which I supported with my research, is that Jesus based Christianity did not start until around 300 CE, and was of entirely a Roman construction. Now most comparative mythologists agree that it is made entirely of earlier myths, however an earlier date is usually given for it's creation.
What I was interested in, in posting my ideas on this forum, was not having everyone agree with me, but rather having those who disagreed tell me their reasons for doing so. This way flaws in my theory would be pointed out and I would be able to amend it, or, if need be, discard it in light of the facts.
That's the Liberal Scientific Method at work. By all means prove me wrong if I am wrong, so that I can change.
Christians sometimes ask Skeptics if they believe in evolution. They usually are shocked to hear an answer of "No." The reason the answer is no is that evolution is not a belief anymore than friction or oxidation are beliefs. No faith is required, you can rely solely on facts.
To refer to Skeptics as Evolutionists is like calling us Astronomers or Meteorologists. Some of us might be, but for most of us it is a willfully misleading title. Because I can defend the fact that the Earth orbits the Sun does not make me an Astronomer any more than the fact that I understand the concept of "natural selection" makes me an Evolutionist. That's a job title not a religious belief.
And, frankly, when I said "Christians" I was being misleading. All the major Protestant Sects and the Roman Catholics have no trouble with the fact of evolution at all. Only a small splinter group of Protestants is trying to impose their "values" on the rest of humanity. Hey, they got Prohibition enacted against the will of the majority -- who knows what else they are capable of.
Your stated trepidation about being flamed by nasty Skeptics I'm having a little trouble swallowing. You seem to want to make everything you have to say above comment, "poor Christian". Sorry, that's not how forums work.
So ---- You say that you have a "faith based" belief. I'm not sure I quite understand what that even means. It sounds like you are saying that you believe because you believe. Which is to say really nothing. If you could clear me up on this point.
You faith based belief----
How does it insure an accurate view of the world (assuming that is what you wish to have)?
Do you apply this philosophy only to "religious" matters or also to your "every day" life? (For instance do you rely on "faith" while making a major purchase, say a used car or a house?)
If not, why not?
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When the dead talk -- they talk to him |
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broven
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2001 : 16:20:18 [Permalink]
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Several good points. First I apologize for the "evolutionist" label. In my haste to say what I had to say, I didn't choose my words well. Secondly, I have to say that I don't quite put evolution in the 'proven fact' department. Based on the evidence, I'd say it's highly likely. But I wasn't really arguing the creationist case, anyway. I believe in a creator who had a very complex plan. Evolution certainly fits that bill. Thirdly, as for believing because I believe. . . Well, yes, in an extremely simplified way. And even as a believer, I have never heard an explanation that would stand up in court (and certainly not in the more rigorous court of science) that can explain the knowledge of the Creator. As someone who, like yourself, wants to know how and why I personally find this difficult to reconcile. Yet something (I know. . . there I go again) tells me there is a God. Yet I also know that my faith isn't what it once was for the very lack of imperical evidence on which my faith was, of neccisity, based. I would try to make some arguement for His existence, but you and I both know the arguements for, and the rebuttals to those statements. So I won't waste either of our time (any more than I already have).
Finally, do I make all decisions on faith? Certainly not. My faith in a Creator doesn't make much difference as to wether the brakes are going to go out on the car I just bought, and being a christian doesn't make my furnace more efficient. But when I find myself in a situation where my actions become a moral issue, my belief system helps in determining my course. I use religion where it is relevent, or math if that's relevent, or an encyclopedia. ... Whatever resource and/or tool is best suited for the job.
Thanks for your (and Trish's) responses, although I must say, I really didn't mean to get into a religious thing. Originally all I wanted to say (and I said it quite poorly) was, it's one thing to discuss a topic and disagree with one another (a concept I whole heartedly approve of) but another to debase your opponent, merely for being an opponent.
Take care, and thanks again.
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2001 : 16:50:39 [Permalink]
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Broven, on the SFN main page, did you see the on-going debate with that Mark Purchase guy? As a non-theist, I've had to put up with stuff like that quite a bit. Unfortunately, one was someone I had to work for. No on here meant to get you back up, but after some situations I've been through, I'll admit I spook pretty easily. It's none of my business what you believe, and if it makes you happy and you're not hurting anyone else, hey, go for it.
BTW everyone, if someone you work for ever calls you "vain, conceited, self-centered, unethical, and totally amoral"...this is the important part. The correct answer is NOT
"What's your point?"
Lisa
Who do you serve? Who do you trust? |
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broven
New Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2001 : 21:03:27 [Permalink]
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This is fun. Haha
I think I'll move it over to the religion forum though.
Peace
Everybody's got something to hide except for me and my monkey. |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 05/27/2001 : 14:45:56 [Permalink]
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For true believers:
Let us not get blasphemous about all of this religious stuff. If there were a deity, would it not be an evil to state anything authoritatively in His/Her/Its name? Do not talk about the Bible as a source of your thinking, because the Bible and all other religious books were written by people and not by deities.
I think that a real deity would be extremely nonplused by anybody who held forth "truths" in His/Her/Its name.
Then again, I am most certainly NOT a deity, so I would not know.
ljbrs
Edited by - ljbrs on 05/31/2001 20:26:40 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 06/09/2001 : 15:50:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Why must you dissect everything? Seriously, you basically wrote out my entire post! Simply, I believe in God by faith.
jar_jar_binks45
quote:
jar_jar: Try reading something besides those little ICR brochures if you want to discuss evolution. The points you made are ridiculous. If you are going to let someone else do your thinking for you it helps to choose someone that can. Go to school and by school I mean a good and proper school not some fundamentalist college. Then, if you do attend one of these schools, you will be amazed at how far faith doesn't get you in science courses
@tomic
1st of all Jar is not going to see this because he's not posting anymore, as I saw.
2nd, you are all missing the point. Don't you see what subject this post started with?
Next, @ is right, getting more information would help. If Jar doesn't, that's his problem, which is my last point, if it makes some people feel better to believe why can't others accept that everyone is on a different plane. They may or may not move to a higher or lower one but they can only do it when they are ready. Belittling them doesn't help. Giving information as @ has done might. |
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ljbrs
SFN Regular
USA
842 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2001 : 21:46:08 [Permalink]
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Snake, et al.:
quote:
***
1st of all Jar is not going to see this because he's not posting anymore, as I saw.
2nd, you are all missing the point. Don't you see what subject this post started with?
Next, @ is right, getting more information would help. If Jar doesn't, that's his problem, which is my last point, if it makes some people feel better to believe why can't others accept that everyone is on a different plane. They may or may not move to a higher or lower one but they can only do it when they are ready. Belittling them doesn't help. Giving information as @ has done might.
Jar was attempting to proselytize us. I, personally, do not care what a person believes, so long as he/she/it does not hurt anybody with it. Differences in religion have caused more strife, murder, mahem, etc., in this world, that one cannot take religion lightly. On the other hand, nobody can persuade anybody else who has already made up his/her/its mind.
I think that JAR was attempting to persuade us with his *superior knowledge of the correct path*. He should learn to stay away from skeptics. Skeptics can eat him alive...
ljbrs
We all know better. Why can't we all do better?
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2001 : 16:45:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Jar was attempting to proselytize us.
It's all a matter of perception. That's why there will never be an Utopia.
quote:
He should learn to stay away from skeptics. Skeptics can eat him alive...
That's an unfortunatly sad statement. It almost sounds like what some people think Jar is doing, trying to insist he is right. Debate is good, I think.
"It's all hype, until you prove it"
T. |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2001 : 18:45:53 [Permalink]
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Debate is great, but jar jar did not come here to debate. One does not leave a statement as jar jar did for the purpose of starting a debate. To make it worse, it was as if jar jar was just copying some text from an ICR Impact or something.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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yaxxbarl
New Member
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2001 : 18:12:43 [Permalink]
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I've read through much of bink's outpourings and it seems pretty much of the 'evangelise at all costs' part of the Xian thing and are indeed probably paraphrased from some pamphlet.
There is a christian writer by the name of Adrian Plass who often says 'Reality will set you free' in response to those who adopt an attitude like Binks.
By that I think he means that you can't go through life in a state of blissful ignorance brought on by overdosing on god, as reality will sneak up on you and bite you on the backside.
Furthermore, I'd say that meaning in life is found by coping with the things that don't go right and by living in a world which isn't all sickly lovely and rose-tinted, which is far from how the likes of Binks would have us believe.
Yaxx. |
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