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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
 Posted - 01/21/2006 : 12:31:55 [Permalink]
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| In many ways, the quack wacks are the worst scum of all the wacks, since they actually cause their believers to die. Criminal bastards like this should be put away for life. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2006 : 12:39:04 [Permalink]
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| Couldn't agree more. They've had this one in the slammer before, but he somehow slithered out. Very slippery character. |
Ron White |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2006 : 13:16:51 [Permalink]
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See the Amazon.com page for Trudeau's book. I went there
(http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0975599518/ref=cm_rv_thx_view/102-8499126-8336121?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155) just now to post a quick negative review, including a link to the InfomercialWatch
(http://www.infomercialwatch.org/tran/trudeau.shtml) item on his book. I strongly urge everyone to post their own reviews and ratings.
Interestingly, the Kevin Trudeau Blood Money Machine seems even to be scamming the Amazon.com customer rating system. Here's what one reviewer points out, in the discussion area:
Nov 17, 2005 11:08 AM PST
Go down the list of pages and see that you get pages upon pages of 5 star reviews somtimes SEVERAL PAGES IN A ROW OF 5 STAR REVIEWS FROM A SINGLE DAY!!!
Its my personal contention that multi-millionare SCAM-ARTIST Kevin Trudeau is paying a staff to do this because most of the reviews where so negative until AROUND October 18, 2005. Then all of a sudden there is this big turn around....
SEE FOR YOURSELF! THIS IS TOO WEIRD.
ALL THAT IS REQUIRED TO SCAM THE RATINGS IS TO TAKE OUT A UNIQUE E-MAIL ADDRESS FOR EACH FAKE NAME, WHICH CAN BE GOTTEN EASILY VIA FREE EMAIL SERVICES LIKE YAHOO AND HOTMAIL.
AMAZON BE WARNED!!
SOMEONE IS SCAMMING YOUR RATING SYSTEM.
EVER SINCE THEN THE "RATINGS SCAM" HAS GOT HIS RATING UP FROM TWO STARS TO THREE 2/3 STARS. SOMEONE NEEDS TO STOP THIS!!!!!!!!!
M. Villalobos
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/21/2006 13:18:29 |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2006 : 13:56:03 [Permalink]
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| I just contributed my own "1 star" review so I'll see whether they post it (it's unusually nasty so I question it, but they're supposed to generally do so within 1 day) but yea, padding the deck sounds like this character's syle, and God knows he's got the bucks to get it done. |
Ron White |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2006 : 16:27:07 [Permalink]
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One interesting point is that despite his infomercial's promises, Trudeau's supposed cures are NOT available in his book! Trudeau's marks readers are instead always referred to his Web site. There, they soon find that the details of these wondrous cures are only available if you pay to subscribe to the site. So you pays your money so's you can pays your money again, and only then can you get the quack cures. Nice guy, eh? |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/21/2006 16:29:35 |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2006 : 17:55:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
quote:
Originally posted by trogdor
...the vast majority of people who took a bagel payed for it...
They had to figure that out from the security camera footage, since the 10% who grabbed whatever money was in the box and walked kept it perpetually empty (joking.)
The occassion of none other than Dr. Trudeau himself being featured on 20/20 last night allows me to add this- the guy is worse than simply a scammer- he's a genuinely bad character. I got back in time to catch the last 10 minutes of the story, maybe, and I turned on the tube to immediately hear of people with tumors that had grown larger, people having seizures, and dying cancer patients suffering because in their desperation, they had read and believed the bunk concocted in the warped imagination of this ethically bankrupt piece of trash. No remorse at all... just endless spin and more lies. I'd say "unbelievable," but sadly, it's not.
Ronny, I still have that show on tape. Want to show my brother but have a feeling he'll only make excuses for the guy.
If you are in the Los Angeles area I could come over and show it to you.
On a related post where Kil mentioned having a booth to tell people how the 'cures' don't work. Like my brother, they will IMO not want to believe. They've got their minds made up or they so NEED to have that faith that nothing will change their minds. Maybe only a small number of people who were probably somewhat skeptcal anyway. Because otherwise why would people go to those places or buy that nonsense in the 1st place?
They probably didn't have enough science education in early years to know better, because the schools waste money on other stuff. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2006 : 18:21:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
I just contributed my own "1 star" review so I'll see whether they post it (it's unusually nasty so I question it, but they're supposed to generally do so within 1 day) but yea, padding the deck sounds like this character's syle, and God knows he's got the bucks to get it done.
I just wrote a review too. Hope they post it also. It's under the name Norm. Let me know if you see it.
Maybe we all should post one. Then if they delete the nasty ones (I'm not very tactful ), some might get through. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/21/2006 : 19:40:28 [Permalink]
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Snake wrote: quote:
On a related post where Kil mentioned having a booth to tell people how the 'cures' don't work. Like my brother, they will IMO not want to believe. They've got their minds made up or they so NEED to have that faith that nothing will change their minds. Maybe only a small number of people who were probably somewhat skeptical anyway. Because otherwise why would people go to those places or buy that nonsense in the 1st place?
They probably didn't have enough science education in early years to know better, because the schools waste money on other stuff.
Kevin Trudeau's sort of evil scam should not be left for the "market" to sort out, as some honest Libertarians -- and all dishonest quacks -- might prefer. Even (especially!) vulnerable people need to have their lives protected from these cannibals, where even our sweet skeptical reason is not effective in saving their lives. Many of these victims are desperate and credulous. They don't deserve to be treated as cattle fit only for slaughter on the altar of Mammon.
I propose a that a "Kevin Trudeau Dequackification Law" be passed in our various states and nations. The law might read something vaguely like this:
It shall be a felony to promote, distribute, or sell, for profit, any medically unproven device, nostrum, service, or advice, which is promoted for the treatment of deadly disease in a human being, if such promotion, distribution, or sale prevents or discourages scientifically accepted medical treatment, and if it can be proven that a human being has died as a result of using such a device, nostrum, service, or advice in lieu of accepted medical treatment. This felony shall be considered a form of homicide, punishable by the penalties applicable to either manslaughter or murder, as a jury shall decide.
One reason I'm hot about this subject is that, back in 1984, a "good friend" suggested that I treat my Hodgkins lymphoma with "visualization" techniques to the exclusion of chemotherapy. (This is a mental concentration technique that is supposed to energize one's immune system.) I told my friend that I would certainly try the visualization, as it could not hurt, it cost me nothing, and it might even help. But I insisted on going through the grueling chemo. Prior to about 60 years ago, nearly everyone who got Hodgkins disease died. Now most, like me, recover, and the techniques are improving. Doctors actually tend to be delighted by a diagnosis of Hodgkins. Had I followed my New Age friend's advise, I'm pretty certain I'd be dead now, and haunting his ass.
People like Kevin Trudeau are far worse than the well-meaning morons who may give us dangerous advice out of gullibility or ignorance. They are stone killers, for money. Seriously, our laws should reflect that.
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“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/21/2006 19:43:00 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2006 : 00:47:06 [Permalink]
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| His new infomercial is selling his news letter to which he makes a point of saying there are no ads because he, "doesn't sell any products, just the information." Clearly a reference to keep the FDA out of his hair. |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2006 : 00:53:42 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by HalfMooner
Even (especially!) vulnerable people need to have their lives protected from these cannibals, where even our sweet skeptical reason is not effective in saving their lives. Many of these victims are desperate and credulous. They don't deserve to be treated as cattle fit only for slaughter on the altar of Mammon.
I propose a that a "Kevin Trudeau Dequackification Law" be passed in our various states and nations. The law might read something vaguely like this:
It shall be a felony to promote, distribute, or sell, for profit, any medically unproven device, nostrum, service, or advice, which is promoted for the treatment of deadly disease in a human being, if such promotion, distribution, or sale prevents or discourages scientifically accepted medical treatment, and if it can be proven that a human being has died as a result of using such a device, nostrum, service, or advice in lieu of accepted medical treatment. This felony shall be considered a form of homicide, punishable by the penalties applicable to either manslaughter or murder, as a jury shall decide.
You seem to have missed the point, at least what I was trying to say.
You, anyone nor governments can't protect everyone from every thing.
I'm sure you don't smoke, drink coffee, eat popcorn at the movies or take asprin, drive a car or even go out of your house or take a bath in it. Living is a risk, there aren't enough laws to cover every possibility. Various groups are sure trying to make them. Look at all the silly disclaimers on packages. Not everyone is on the same level nor will they ever be. My brother has an IQ of over 150, he was a history major and is a teacher. My point there is to say even people who are capable of logic and understanding want to believe. He defends that idiot book. What can you do about that?
You can't keep making law after law. Trudeau is not allowed to sell crap so he uses freedom of speech to get around that. Are you going to stop that too. In other words, as they say, if someone wants to steel something, you can put strong locks on it but a criminal will still find a way. We don't need anymore 'stinking' laws, we need education. And after that, like with my brother, it's buyer beware. I think once you'd told some one don't point a gun at your self and pull the triger you've done enough.
I just thought..... Haven't you heard of the Darwin Awards?
ps and btw, there are already laws covering what you said in your new law anyway, at least I'm pretty sure one is not allowed to use dangerous medical treatments that cause death ....and whatever the hell else you said. I'm not a lawyer but I watch 'Law and Order' they wouldn't lie about something like that!
At some point one has to take responsibility for his own actions. Do we want the state to follow us everywhere? I for one already feel trapped. With that stupid Home Land Security nonsense it's even worse. |
| Edited by - Snake on 01/22/2006 01:08:24 |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2006 : 00:57:12 [Permalink]
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| I also wrote a review as Dr S. Let me know if anyone sees it. |
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2006 : 02:14:54 [Permalink]
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Snake wrote:quote:
You seem to have missed the point, at least what I was trying to say.
You, anyone nor governments can't protect everyone from every thing.
I wasn't trying to disagree with anything you wrote, Snake, but simply offering my own response for dealing with the loathsome likes of Trudeau. I hadn't meant to sound as though I had any beef with you or your comments. I agree that everyone cannot be protected from everything, either by the efforts skeptics or by the law. But is that an argument that nobody can be protected from anything? Not in my mind.
I submit that the capacity for altruism is likely an evolutionary advance that our hominid ancestors made long ago, useful for for the survival of any species living in a close cooperative society. The idea of such altruism, as expressed culturally in laws intended to protect the vulnerable, doesn't exactly contradict Darwin.
I think Kevin Trudeau's book could be compared to screaming "FIRE!" in a crowded theater. It certainly looks like he uses his book to attempt to get around the FTC consent decree his is supposedly bound by. His method appears to be to run infomercials for his book, then after you pay for the book, the book is revealed to essentially just be advertising for his Web page. On his Web page (once you pay again) you can reportedly get access to emailing Trudeau himself, and who knows what you may have to pay to buy what, after contacting him? As a layman, I can only suppose that a strong argument might be made that this all has the appearance of being just a complex way to circumvent the law through indirection, and that his book, in its function as an elemental link in the scheme, thus may not be protected as free speech.
I'm almost certain that many people have died, are dying, and will die because they stopped taking their insulin, chemotherapy, antipsychotics, etc., on Trudeau's authority. This is some very serious shit. People may very likely be going crazy right now, and attacking others, thanks to such advice. Stronger laws, so long as they don't actually trample free speech, seem to me a sensible a way to stem the menacing plague of quackery that this guy represents.
I accept that where to draw the line about what is and is not protected free speech is certainly an important issue in all this, and not a simple one.
quote:
ps and btw, there are already laws covering what you said in your new law anyway, at least I'm pretty sure one is not allowed to use dangerous medical treatments that cause death ....and whatever the hell else you said. I'm not a lawyer but I watch 'Law and Order' they wouldn't lie about something like that!
Actually I was not suggesting a law against dangerous "medical" procedures by the quacks per se. I agree, those are covered by existing laws. What I meant the proposed law to do (and I found it this very complex to write) is to make it homicide to offer quackery while at the same time getting people to quit real treatment, in cases where the victim dies as a result. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/22/2006 03:34:01 |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2006 : 10:57:46 [Permalink]
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Okay, so Kevin Trudeau, clever scammer that he is, has figured a way around the law by not actually selling anything but information. And he claims that he is protected by the first amendment by working his scam that way. The first amendment does indeed protect scallywags from federal prosecution. (Well, unless you are promoting the violent overthrow of the government or terrorist acts that is. In those cases we now have the patriot act protecting our ass's, but more likely making dissent a crime depending on who they are targeting since the wording of that act is so that vague. But I digress.)
Trudeau lies about “what they don't want you to know” falsely accusing a medical establishment of hiding the truth about cures. A ploy for sales that has a built in appeal since most of us view some of that establishment with some skepticism.
The truth is that most medical doctors just don't prescribe the remedies he promotes because there is, in most cases, little or no evidence for the efficacy of those treatments. That is the conspiracy. Most doctors reject quack cures.
Since the Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994, the sale of much of what Trudeau promotes is federally protected and readily available. And yet Trudeau screams conspiracy. Another lie. (Banned substances like Laetrile are only banned because they carry the risk of doing real damage all on their own. In the case of Laetrile that would be cyanide poisoning.)
Here is what I am getting at. And I think this has been mentioned before in this thread. Those hurt because they were credulous enough to fall for Trudeau's very convincing pitch, perhaps out of desperation or because they are of the mindset that all authorities are out to get them for personal gain, and casting a blind eye to Trudeau's claim to authority on the subject and ignoring how he is profiting off of his sales of books and the website, should sue.
It seems to me that he is wide open for so many civil suits that he could be caught up in court for a very long time in an attempt to defend his lies. Knowingly lying and bad advice are not protected by the first amendment if it leads to demonstrable harm to the victims of his lies. Sure, he can legally lie, but he can also be sued for the results of his lies. Especially if he presents himself as an authority on the subject he is lying about.
My hope is that people will start suing. That is the way to bring him down…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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R.Wreck
SFN Regular
USA
1191 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2006 : 11:17:27 [Permalink]
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Reading the reviews on amazon, I came across this gem:
quote:
First I just want to say that Trudeau is NOT the only person that says that homeopathy is the way to live a healthy life, it's a fact for thousands of years, there are so many books on the subject!
This is the kind of ignorance that helps turn frauds into millionaires. Un-freakin'-believable, ain't it? |
The foundation of morality is to . . . give up pretending to believe that for which there is no evidence, and repeating unintelligible propositions about things beyond the possibliities of knowledge.
T. H. Huxley
The Cattle Prod of Enlightened Compassion
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HalfMooner
Dingaling
Philippines
15831 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2006 : 12:11:11 [Permalink]
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Kil wrote: quote:
Those hurt because they were credulous enough to fall for Trudeau's very convincing pitch, perhaps out of desperation or because they are of the mindset that all authorities are out to get them for personal gain, and casting a blind eye to Trudeau's claim to authority on the subject and ignoring how he is profiting off of his sales of books and the website, should sue.
Very good points, Kil. That seems to be an immediately practical approach to putting Trudeau out of business.
Yet, in my opinion, bringing lawsuits doesn't mean his activities should not be criminalized as well. His use of a the freedom of speech card seems to be a way to get marks to pay their way to emailing level, where he personally communicates with them. I hope there are investigators who have gone undercover to determine if Trudeau actually sells nostrums (or, under the FTC consent decree, anything but books) to people who have reached this level. In the meantime, his book might be a way of practicing medicine without a license, and I'm not convinced this is, or should be, protected by the First Amendment. In my opinion, this isn't about Bush's undoubted rape of our rights to expression and privacy, it's about practicing medicine without a license, advising sick people to quit using the very medications and procedures that are keeping them alive. There ought to be a law.
There must be thousands of emergent quacks and general con-men who are closely watching Trudeau's super-slick methods and growing wealth. This is likely going to be an even more massive industry in the future. I would hate to see a situation where the only remedies are lawsuits after the fact by the families of deceased quack victims. Torts are awesomely powerful tools, but I suspect that stronger anti-quack laws are needed, too, as even more quacks jump on the medicine wagon.
But in practical terms, I recognize that if my "homicide" solution doesn't fire up skeptics here, it's probably going nowhere in the larger world, despite my opinion. |
“Biology is just physics that has begun to smell bad.” —HalfMooner
Here's a link to Moonscape News, and one to its Archive. |
| Edited by - HalfMooner on 01/22/2006 12:23:42 |
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