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Originally posted by filthy

...The bin Ladin family has been in bed with the Bushs for many decades. As a favor to them, Bush allowed members to fly out soon after 9/11. This was improper, but it happened. As far as is known, the family has had little if any contact with Osama for the last decades, ...

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Originally posted by tw101356

I think the main rule here is to never attribute to malice anything that can be explained by stupidity.

The government and the airlines did not expect that anyone would use planes as weapons. It had always been hijackings and hostages up to that point. Air crews were taught to go along with hijackers. NORAD certainly wasn't looking for anything but missiles coming over the horizon. The Air Force did not have planes ready to scramble in five minutes because there were no enemy air forces within bombing range. This all changed when the first plane struck.

At that point Bush failed as a leader by failing to do anything except read to children.

Even after the first plane struck, there was no fast way to determine if there were more planes and which other ones might have been hijacked. The hijackers may have turned off identificaiton transponders, which would make it even more difficult to determine who was who. It simply took time to get planes to all identify themselves and to account for all of them and to identify the remaining hijackings by the process of elimination. In that time 2 more planes struck. The Air Force scrambled jets toward the fourth plane but it crashed before they got near.

Everyone got caught by surprise. There's no need to come up with a conspiracy theory to explain what happened.

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Originally posted by marfknox

Everything in bold is quoting HYBRID:

an insult is an insult

An insult is not an insult. If I call someone a “little shit” or “motherfucker”, that is vulgar and totally non-constructive, and as such, is meant to express intense emotions, be hurtful, and upset the person being called the name. It also often reveals a lack of thoughtfulness on the part of the person saying it, because it is so non-specific about what is being criticized.

Trying to justify these fucked up things with oh, they don't know what they are doing, oh they are incompetent, well get sombody in there who IS competent!... Get them THE FUCK OUT!! Who's going to have some balls to do or say something about this?

Plenty of people have protested against in incompetence of this president and his administration. I was writing opinion columns about his incompetence for over a year before he was first “elected”. This past election I worked with MoveOn in Philadelphia trying to get Kerry elected. Michael Moore made a documentary. John Stewart slams the Bush administration and the lame, chicken-shit big media on a daily basis. Plenty of people are screaming at the top of their lungs about US government incompetence.

How the fuck did they get in there to begin with!!

Same way Brown got to lead FEMA, same way Bush got to be President, and same way Pat Robertson gets away with calling for the assassination of Pres. Chavez on his show without consequences from FCC – money, nepotism and old boys' clubs. Look at North Korea. Kim Jung Il is an eccentric, paranoid moron. Did he earn leadership? Of course not. He inherited his position from his daddy.

Dude, ITS NOT HARD T OKEEP PEOPLE QUITE. It happens everyday.

If the government was so great at keeping people quiet, then how are you privy to all this stuff? Obviously it's either not easy to keep people quiet or it is and the real secrets are unknown to everyone, including you. You claim it is so obvious through your creative insults that people here are ignorant, have sticks up our asses, and how we're letting these horrible things happen, but then you insist that we take your word, that we believe you. Why? I don't even know you. Should I believe what you say because of your emotional fervor? From my point of view you are some crazed guy on a discussion list that I participate in for fun. I'd be a real diphead if I believed everything I heard through such channels. And if you are so sure about this stuff, and we here are all so stupid, why are you wasting your time with us? Surely there are better ways to spread your word that to a handful of people on a discussion list.

You talk about the media as if the media is one unified puppet. The media, journalists in particular, are everyone who participates in spreading information. There are media outlets that spout what you are spouting. Our job is to question the evidence that the journalist puts forth and also to question the credibility of that journalist's sources.

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Originally posted by marfknox

So I watched the Alex Jones film all the way through.

Jones heavily uses imagery and music to persuade the audience. The whole opening is nothing but a montage of mostly violent imagery and ominous music, and the ominous music continues throughout the film. I very much felt a lot of this was overcompensating and manipulative. Then again, Michael Moore and any other good propagandist does the same thing.

Much of the film, including the first bit of dialogue, is Alex Jones himself, fast talking a slew of heavily slanted facts and speculation that ranges from well worth considering to outright ridiculous. For instance, the concern about 9-11 being used by the government to push the Patriot Act and other initiatives that restrict freedom is a very worth while concern. But claims such as that the UN is engineering a plague to set loose on the world soon was out there.

There are many facts and questions brought up in this film, and when Jones has hard evidence that doesn't need to be spun, he specifically cites his source and gives more details. But Jones summarizes the most damning “evidence”, flashing memos and other documents across the screen one after another without explaining any more context than that they somehow part of the “public record”.

The vast majority of this film is fluff. Stuff like:

-Jones giving anecdotal histories about Nero burning Rome to blame the Christians

-LOTS of eye-witnesses, and eye-witnesses are notoriously unreliable. And many of give outright questionable testimony, like a guy who said of “John Doe #2” (The supposed Middle-Eastern accomplice during the Oklahoma City Bombing) “He was not an American. He was a foreigner. You could tell by his skin and his hair…” – um yeah. In fact, the primary “evidence” that the Oklahoma City bombing was a government conspiracy was eye-witnesses, such as a woman (and they repeated her words for emphasis) saying the buildings walls were “blown out”. (See, this bystander's saying “out” proves that there was an explosive device planted on the inside. Now that's good journalism!)

In a nutshell, Jones has gathered as much evidence as he can that the public doesn't know everything about major disasters and that the government keeps certain information secret (for whatever reason), and then Jones makes completely inappropriate and wild conjecture.

I read a review of this film, and this sentence largely captures how I feel: “I say let him ask away, and qualitatively, his evidence and analysis are exceptional; his conclusions are insane.” Except that I would change “evidence and analysis” to “ability to spin the evidence”.

Another reviewer makes this criticism: “The 'facts' were clearly obscured - for example - his use of multiple seismic spikes as evidence for more than one bomb in Oklahoma city proves nothing. All earthquakes have signature S and P waves, which travel at different speeds and would thus appear as separated spikes.”

And what is Jones's overall conclusion? That there is a huge conspiracy of people in power, (and he implicates Presidents Clinton, Bushes 1&2, and… oh yes, even Jimmy Carter) – Satanists (yes, he actually calls “them” “Satanists” in the film) who have been working since the establishment of the UN to establish a “New World Order”. (And apparently they are friends with Salman Rushdie because they warned him not to fly on 9-11.) and that this conspiracy is so extensive that attacks like that of 9-11 have been being planned since the 70's, 80's and 90's.

Talk about giving the government too much credit.

I end with an invitation for those here to evaluate the credibility of this source. For me, Alex Jones discredited himself pretty badly with the sheer amount that he relies on his own arrogant speculation in this fi

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Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse

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Originally posted by HYBRID
Why don't you do me a favor and get the stick out of your ass, and try to think for yourself!

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I was thinking for myself.
Since I live in Europe, the logistics to carry out such an assignment is a bitch. That was why I suggested you do the "job", you're already in the states, and being a US citizen allows you access that I would never have. Besides, given the amount of anti-American statements I've written here I'd be surprised if I'd get past customs before they grab me and ship me away to Guantanamo Base.

Some friendly advice:
You really should calm down. Your abusive language makes people less likely to take you seriously, and I guess that is not your intent. If you want to convince us, post hard evidence and less hand-waving.

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Originally posted by Cuneiformist

Just to continue up on the more legitimate aspect of this debate, I'd like to first refresh HYBRID's memory. Earlier in this thread, he wrote as partical evidence for the government's being behind 9/11:

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i think its simple, we don't have to go into all of the other evidence, but I think of it like this: we have something called radar, and when planes leave the airport, they are constantly being tracked by this. We also have something called NORAD, who's entire purpose is to stop terrorist attacks. They also are supposed to stop attacks like 9/11. But alas, even though we had all of that, no NORAD, even though those planes were off course for over 1 and 45 minutes. But other planes that have went off course and were intercepted by the military and NORAD within minutes, but not on 9/11. Why? Was radar not working that day? How about NORAD? I would love to here the excuses this time.

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However, as I and other noted, NORAD itself claimsthat

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Until the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, NORAD's focus was almost exclusively fixed on threats coming toward the Canadian and American borders, not terrorism in our domestic airspace. Because of that day, NORAD's focus has increased to include domestic airspace. NORAD's mission is truly global.

Prior to Sept. 11, NORAD was a word that was associated predominately with the Cold War. The eyes and ears of NORAD were focused on aerospace threats that may come from sources far away from the shores of Canada and the United States.

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Thus, your assertion is weak. You suggested that NORAD should have been on the ball but in fact tracking domestic flights wasn't part of NORAD's mission!

It's also not clear that even if NORAD were looking for such things, that 9/11 would have been prevented. The official report relates much of what happened. For instance, read the chronology for AA flight 11. According to the report, the plane was probably taken over just after 8:14 AM. At 8:19, one of the attendants calls for help. But 8:25, various authorities knew that there was a problem. However, because of how we dealt with highjackers at the time, the reaction was to let them make the next move. When the plane headed for New York, they assumed it was going to land at JKF, perhaps for refueling. According to the report:

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At 8:41, in American's operations center, a colleague told Marquis that the air traffic controllers declared Flight 11 a hijacking and “think he's [American 11] headed toward Kennedy [airport in New York City]. They're moving every-body out of the way.They seem to have him on a primary radar.They seem to think that he is descending.” At 8:44, Gonzalez reported losing phone contact with Ong. About this same time Sweeney reported to Woodward, “Something is wrong.We are in a rapid descent . . . we are all over the place.” Woodward asked Sweeney to look out the window to see if she could determine where they were. Sweeney responded: “We are flying low.We are flying very,very low. We are flying way too low.” Seconds later she said, “Oh my God we are way too low.” The phone call ended. At 8:46:40, American 11 crashed into the North Tower of the World Trade Center in NewYork City. All on board,along with

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Originally posted by filthy

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Originally posted by HYBRID

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Originally posted by filthy


Ah HYBRID, I see you have your gibber in good, working order. Well done!

The government conspiricy theory (speculation, really) started up as the buildings were falling down. I'll admit, I did a little fantisizing along those lines myself, as likely did everyone.

Strike one: The conspiricy would have to been too big if our government were responsible; too many people in the know; too many mouths to spill it all. It is said that a conspiricy has the best chance at success if it is composed of a group of no more than one. It was blind luck that Atta and his merry band weren't caught while learning to steer a flying airplane. I recall reading that there was a report on one or more of them. The report(s) was ignored.

Strike two: Osama bin Laden is the real deal. A religious lunatic, he was a hero in the Soviet/Afgan war. His sole objective is to eradicate the infidle -- Jews and Christians mainly -- in the Muslim holy lands. He was the mastermind in the USS Cole bombing and boasted that he was going to launch an attack in the mainland US. Only a small group, overseas, was in on it, and even then, in August '01, the administration recieved a warning that there might well be an attack involving aircraft. The report was ignored.

Strike three, and outta there!: Not even Bush is stupid enough to pull something like that, and no evidence has been put forth that he or anyone associated with him ever even thought of it -- as noted above, quite the contrary. Can you imagine what would happen if the theory proved out? I myself would demand to serve as the mob's hangman; I know the knot.

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Strike one: Too big? Blind luck? I cannot believe that you are rational, at all! Dude, ITS NOT HARD T OKEEP PEOPLE QUITE. It happens everyday. The governemnt has been doing fucked up shit for years, and their voices have been silenced in many ways. That shit you are talking is imaginary, that 'Oh, its too big, the 'conspiracy is too big' what kind of shit is this man, come on. Its not like its hard to control the media. What would stop them? Do people in the media have someone to answer to? What about above them? Oh I get it, you think that reporters just get stories, and get to run whatever info they get,freely without filtering, this is immature thinking, but I am the kid though right?


I don't believe anything that comes out of the government's mouth about OBL. Absolutely nothing! The bin ladens and bush ties are so thick, you could land a plane on it! Oh by the way, if you watched the film, you would know that clinton and bush signed documents protecting obl and al qeida, after he 'bombed' the uss cole up until 9/11. Do you always repeat the only story the media gives us word for word? If they told you to go kick a baby's head off, its good for you, you would do that too. Don't mention that guy's name to me, he is a patsy, a smokescreen for people like you to believe in.

Fuck bush, he is just a front man and nothing more. So what if you found out it was true? How would you find out, outside of the media, because obviously, the media are the only people in the world with brains, because those are the only ones you will say can be true, or have evidence. Do you understand how stupid and dangerous this is? What would you do? I think nothing, what you are doing right now, sit comfortably. The evidence is there, but fear, arrogance and a collective ignorance prevails in every orafice of your body. That comfortable ass life you are living is slowly slipping away from you, and your future generations, I hope your ready. Ready or not...

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It is not possible to keep people quite; witness the Plame affair, and the afore-mentioned memos being made public, not to mention the various investigations of members of this wretched administration.

I agree on the mainstream media, which is why I rarely watch/listen to them. Find the right blogs however, and you can get a pretty good picture of what's going on.

The bin Ladin family has been in bed with the Bushs for many decades. As a favor to them, Bush allowed members to fly out soon after 9/11. This was improper, but it happened. As far as is known, the family has had little if any contact with Osama for the last decades, and some years ago, the Saudies tried, and obviously failed, to hit him. Reagan/Bush trained and equiped Osama's organization during the Afgan war, as well as supplying chemical and biological weapons to Saddam to help him defeat Iran.

Oh, lest we forget, the Cole assault was during Clinton's administration.

Read my profile, sonny. I have never sat comfortably in my life. You say the evidence is there; then present it.

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Originally posted by marfknox

Everything in bold is quoting HYBRID:

an insult is an insult

An insult is not an insult. If I call someone a “little shit” or “motherfucker”, that is vulgar and totally non-constructive, and as such, is meant to express intense emotions, be hurtful, and upset the person being called the name. It also often reveals a lack of thoughtfulness on the part of the person saying it, because it is so non-specific about what is being criticized.

Trying to justify these fucked up things with oh, they don't know what they are doing, oh they are incompetent, well get sombody in there who IS competent!... Get them THE FUCK OUT!! Who's going to have some balls to do or say something about this?

Plenty of people have protested against in incompetence of this president and his administration. I was writing opinion columns about his incompetence for over a year before he was first “elected”. This past election I worked with MoveOn in Philadelphia trying to get Kerry elected. Michael Moore made a documentary. John Stewart slams the Bush administration and the lame, chicken-shit big media on a daily basis. Plenty of people are screaming at the top of their lungs about US government incompetence.

How the fuck did they get in there to begin with!!

Same way Brown got to lead FEMA, same way Bush got to be President, and same way Pat Robertson gets away with calling for the assassination of Pres. Chavez on his show without consequences from FCC – money, nepotism and old boys' clubs. Look at North Korea. Kim Jung Il is an eccentric, paranoid moron. Did he earn leadership? Of course not. He inherited his position from his daddy.

Dude, ITS NOT HARD T OKEEP PEOPLE QUITE. It happens everyday.

If the government was so great at keeping people quiet, then how are you privy to all this stuff? Obviously it's either not easy to keep people quiet or it is and the real secrets are unknown to everyone, including you. You claim it is so obvious through your creative insults that people here are ignorant, have sticks up our asses, and how we're letting these horrible things happen, but then you insist that we take your word, that we believe you. Why? I don't even know you. Should I believe what you say because of your emotional fervor? From my point of view you are some crazed guy on a discussion list that I participate in for fun. I'd be a real diphead if I believed everything I heard through such channels. And if you are so sure about this stuff, and we here are all so stupid, why are you wasting your time with us? Surely there are better ways to spread your word that to a handful of people on a discussion list.

You talk about the media as if the media is one unified puppet. The media, journalists in particular, are everyone who participates in spreading information. There are media outlets that spout what you are spouting. Our job is to question the evidence that the journalist puts forth and also to question the credibility of that journalist's sources.

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Originally posted by HYBRID
Why don't you just go to any criminal that does not want jail time and ask him if he did it, what would he say? Hell yeah, it was me, put me in jail for life, better yet, execute me. How dumb was that comment, of course they are going to post some crappy excuse to how thousands could get killed, and nobody do shit about it but, oh we didn't know, oh we were late getting up, oh I was too busy getting my dick sucked, fuck that! And if you defend them fuck you too!! You all are part of the problem. You just get your gotdamn wrist ready for the microchip, because I know you are not going to stop it!!Thanks for supporting terror!

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Originally posted by Cuneiformist

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Originally posted by HYBRID
Why don't you just go to any criminal that does not want jail time and ask him if he did it, what would he say? Hell yeah, it was me, put me in jail for life, better yet, execute me. How dumb was that comment, of course they are going to post some crappy excuse to how thousands could get killed, and nobody do shit about it but, oh we didn't know, oh we were late getting up, oh I was too busy getting my dick sucked, fuck that! And if you defend them fuck you too!! You all are part of the problem. You just get your gotdamn wrist ready for the microchip, because I know you are not going to stop it!!Thanks for supporting terror!

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Typical and predictable. In short, you're dismissing my critique of your argument because you think my sources are biased. And while it's good of you to keep that in mind (I typically bring this up when dealing with questions of the Bible), you're significantly off the mark. For instance, while I cited the NORAD website, it wouldn't be hard to find scores of other non-NORAD/government websites and publications which noted the same thing (for instance, here-- a website you yourself use!). I stand by my statement (and those expressed by others here) that before September 11, NORAD was not in the business of tracking domestic flights. You have yet to offer any evidence to the contrary.

I also maintaint that the second part of my argument-- the 9/11 Commission-- is particularly valid. For while it was written by government officials (and thus perhaps biased!), it was really a collection of various disparate testimonies put together in narrative form. For instance, that AA flight 11 took off at 8 am and hit the first tower at 8:46 is well documented. Originally, you claimed that NORAD had almost 2 hours to act yet there is ample evidence to show that this just wasn't the case. Moreover, in order to dismiss the whole of the 9/11 report, you're going to have to say that scores of witnesses-- ordinary people who worked for airlines, for instance-- were or are all in on the fix. You'd also have to claim that the government somehow fabricated dozens of phonecall recordings-- somhow mimicking voices so that family members and such would be fooled.

Moving on, I'd like to make clear that I don't support the current administration nor do I their policies-- domestic or otherwise. But while I know that there are some smart but evil people in charge (our President exclused, of course, as he's a moron), I find that idea that they could orchestrate something like 9/11 and then pass it off to have been the work of Muslim terrorists to be sheer lunacy. I am not defending our government, simply expressing doubt at their ability to do something like that.

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