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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
 Posted - 10/24/2005 : 03:16:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Yet if that society permits the unrestrained reproduction of individuals who are of sub average ability, while those of average and above average ability conscientiously produce fewer children, there is clearly going to be a problem in the longer term.
Do you propose doing something about that? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
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"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 05:06:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Do you deny that transitions in the fossil record occur abruptly?
I most certainly do, if you're saying within a few generations.
The Cambrian Explosion (just like the other "explosions" where new species appeard en massse) is abrupt only in greater geological time scales. We're still talking tens of millions of years.
Punctuated Equilibrium does not mean what you are implying.
quote:
By hidden programming I simply mean genetic instructions that are not activated. A genetic alteration would result in a cascading effect which would activate the DNA programming.
When how do you explain that the genome of early bacteria contained so very few genes compared to today's organisms? The cyanobacteria have less than a 1000th of the base-pairs a dog has. And the eucaryotic cells contains several mitocondria that used to be their own bacteria before they merged to the eucaryotic cells.
It's not like the genome consists of Zipped files of instructions, for how to evolve wings, that are ready to uncompress once you locate the sectret password.
You seriously need to study what is known about DNA and its properties... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 06:08:31 [Permalink]
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Markie said:
quote:
Well to summarize, 'higher human mind activity' involve decisions of moral import in one way or another, and these contribute to the growth of the soul.
This is a very interesting concept. Morals are very different depending on the culture. Morals also change over time.
Some of the Eastern US native americans had a tradition which held that it was a sign of weakness to show mercy to a captive. Therefore torturing a prisoner to death was a moral thing to do.
When Jesus left his family to go preaching it was a very immoral thing to do. In that culture the eldest son was suppose to stay in the family business and help the family. He certainly was considered immoral for hanging out with with whores and unemployed bums.
A sniper in New Orleans is damaging his soul. A sniper in Irag (either side) is strengthining his soul.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 06:38:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse And what evidense do you have that makes all of this more than just religious based speculation?
Unfortunately, very little. It may sound speculative, but the general ideas come from sources purportedly in the know about these things.
quote:
Is a soul necessary for moral behaviour? Are souls for humans, only?
It is not necessary for moral behaviour but can effect behaviour. For humans only. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 06:44:52 [Permalink]
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| In Indian cultures, it's perfectly moral for a girl of twelve to have sexual relations (inside marriage) with a man of 50. The American moral say that is wrong. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 06:51:35 [Permalink]
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| Yeah but American morals are the correct ones. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 06:57:03 [Permalink]
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| Of course. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 06:58:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by markie
Yet if that society permits the unrestrained reproduction of individuals who are of sub average ability, while those of average and above average ability conscientiously produce fewer children, there is clearly going to be a problem in the longer term.
Do you propose doing something about that?
That's the job of the government of course. They already legislate things all over the place (here in Canada and also in Sweden), so it's merely a matter of choosing which things to legislate. I could say it's my inalieanable right to drive my car without a seatbelt or a license or insurance but my government says otherwise, and for good reasons. It is just a matter of time before democratic governments face the reality that they must legislate aspects of human reproduction for the long term welfare of the state and society.
Some websites already speak to this issue very well. Its a matter of public awareness, first.
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 07:12:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by markie
Do you deny that transitions in the fossil record occur abruptly?
I most certainly do, if you're saying within a few generations.
The Cambrian Explosion (just like the other "explosions" where new species appeard en massse) is abrupt only in greater geological time scales. We're still talking tens of millions of years.
Punctuated Equilibrium does not mean what you are implying.
The fact remains that we cannot tell for certain exactly how fast certain changes took place, just that they took place very quickly in geological time. A very significant leap can take place in just one generation according to my model, and the fossil record does not refute that.
quote:
When how do you explain that the genome of early bacteria contained so very few genes compared to today's organisms? The cyanobacteria have less than a 1000th of the base-pairs a dog has. And the eucaryotic cells contains several mitocondria that used to be their own bacteria before they merged to the eucaryotic cells.
It's not like the genome consists of Zipped files of instructions, for how to evolve wings, that are ready to uncompress once you locate the sectret password. You seriously need to study what is known about DNA and its properties...
Hehe, I know a great deal about DNA and its properties. And it is mere conjecture that mitochondria are the result of bacteria invading eucaryotic cells. In my theory bacteria represent a (planned for) retrograde form of life. The original lifeform was more like eukaryotic seaweed.
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 07:15:39 [Permalink]
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And of course, this all is just pure speculation.
Not theory, hypothesis. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 07:17:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
A very significant leap can take place in just one generation according to my model, and the fossil record does not refute that.
There are a lot of irrelevant things that the fossil record does not refute.
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"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 07:26:21 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
That's the job of the government of course. They already legislate things all over the place (here in Canada and also in Sweden)...
...such as?
Post WW2 both the Swedish and the American government had programs involving forced sterilisation of what was referred to as sub-humans, mainly mentally handicapped like people with Downs syndrome, but also other kinds of (believed) genetic mental illnesses.
Finally it was decided that such forced sterilisation was immoral and violated the human rights of these people, and the programs were discontinued. Any legislation passed with the explicit purpose to weed out "lesser humans" (and who the f*ck gets to decide the standard?) will be unconstitutional, and violate basic human rights.
USA is more insidious, as the current government is working toward "let the rich take from the poor unpunished, and the poor might not be able to support its offspring".
quote:
It is just a matter of time before democratic governments face the reality that they must legislate aspects of human reproduction for the long term welfare of the state and society.
I can not imagine a democratic government pass such legislation. If I find myself living in a country, I'd do whatever I can to prevent such blatant violations of basic human rights.
quote:
Some websites already speak to this issue very well. Its a matter of public awareness, first.
Please post a link... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 07:31:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
Markie said:
quote:
Well to summarize, 'higher human mind activity' involve decisions of moral import in one way or another, and these contribute to the growth of the soul.
This is a very interesting concept. Morals are very different depending on the culture. Morals also change over time.
True, but things like betraying a trust are seen around the board as immoral. That's the kind of thing I have in mind. We *know* when we've displayed kindness, and that can have little to do with the sometimes bizarre mores of a given society.
quote:
When Jesus left his family to go preaching it was a very immoral thing to do. In that culture the eldest son was suppose to stay in the family business and help the family.
Hey, Jesus was the breadwinner for his family after the death of his father. And he made sure his family was well provided for before he left to do his work. And he delegated his younger brother James as head of the household before he left for good around the age of 30.
quote:
A sniper in New Orleans is damaging his soul. A sniper in Irag (either side) is strengthining his soul.
I doubt if any soldier feels his soul strengthened by killing people.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 07:40:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Hehe, I know a great deal about DNA and its properties. And it is mere conjecture that mitochondria are the result of bacteria invading eucaryotic cells. In my theory bacteria represent a (planned for) retrograde form of life. The original lifeform was more like eukaryotic seaweed.
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/E/Endosymbiosis.html
This is a theory: supported by evidence.
What evidence do you submit as support for your speculation/hypothesis?
Edit:
Scroll down to the bottom of this page to view the phylogenic tree of mitochondria. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
| Edited by - Dr. Mabuse on 10/24/2005 07:45:35 |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/24/2005 : 08:27:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
And how, precisely, does your model accomplish that? Upon what observations and logic?
??? Simply the proposition that the original cells were intelligently programmed to unfold in evolutionary time to yield, among other things, human beings.
So, no observations at all. You don't have a theory or even a hypothesis. You've got unbridled speculation.quote:
Do you deny that transitions in the fossil record occur abruptly?
Define "abruptly." And then tell me why intelligently-programmed genetic code would take tens of millions of years to "unfold."
And, once again, tell me how to distinguish your speculation from evolutionary theory. What test could be performed to figure out which is correct?quote:
By hidden programming I simply mean genetic instructions that are not activated.
Well, every living thing has one or more of those, as far as I know. Most of the ones found in humans are broken copies of other functional genes, though.quote:
A genetic alteration would result in a cascading effect which would activate the DNA programming.
Since, for the last four billion years, any not-yet-activated hidden programming in the human genome would have had zero effect upon selection, what would keep it from simply being riddled with mutations?quote:
Well if they are significantly different they arise from different programming that's all. But the theme - of getting off the ground - is the same.
Repeated themes in very diverse life forms is also expected of course in my model of intelligent programming, just as our engineers have developed different techiniques of flight.
So, once again, your "theory" predicts the exact same thing as evolutionary theory. Except evolution is based upon real observations. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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