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Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend
173 Posts |
 Posted - 10/01/2005 : 00:49:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
SubjectMatter, it is not the issue of volition involving change I have issue with; it is the matter of the fundamentality of time itself and of change itself. You are theorizing that the two are inseparable as a tautology, while I theorize that time is a derivative phenomenon from an absolute reality of changeableness.
Consider a photon of light travelling at light speed across the universe. According to relativity, it doesn't experience time. Yet even though it is apparently frozen in time it simulataneously experiences a near infinity of space change.
What I'm saying is that as creatures of time-change progression it is only natural to project our time sensibilities to what absolute and timeless reality might be like. Personally I think we are waaay out of our depth considering things which are 'out of time'.
Mark
I am not theorizing about time. The time you speak of is the scientific notion of measurement of change. This is irrelevant to philosophy, the philosophic notion of time is the qualitative aspect of - precisely - change. In terms of philosophy change and time are inseperable (although not identical) by definition. Claiming that something is 'outside of time' from a philosophic point of view means quite simply that it is unchanging and immaterial (matter is defined in terms of interaction, which must necessarily occur in time and space), perhaps a law such as the principles of logic, or a form. An entity cannot be outside of time as an entity necessarily changes over time. |
Sibling Atom Bomb of Couteous Debate |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 05:44:44 [Permalink]
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| If we teach only science in science class, I can't see what the problem is. Why should we add all kinds of supernatural stuff just because some people want to believe in their existence? There is no evidence of a creator, simply because we don't have a clue as to what this creator is like. If we don't know that, then how can we know what evidence to look for? Or, if we take something from nature and say that it's evidence of a creator, it's just randomly taking stuff and try to say it's some sort of evidence. Evidence for what, exactly? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 14:03:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Maverick
If we teach only science in science class... Evidence for what, exactly?
And we SHOULD teach only science in science class, period. I think a lot of us would LIKE to believe in a benevolent diety, our lives having more meaning than just "dust to dust" etc. but we see no compelling evidence to, if any at all. I'd like to fantasize I have a million bucks in my checking, too, but I know if I take the fantasy too seriously and try to write a check for 100K, harsh reality awaits. That's the problem with fantasies- the bottom always falls through sooner or later. I'd rather accept a less-glorious realty.
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CourseKnot
Skeptic Friend
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 21:07:58 [Permalink]
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| Gees... could we just take ID and evoluttion for HUMANS out of the books? Would that be a solution? |
Just flying through space with the rest of you... |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 21:28:16 [Permalink]
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quote:
could we just take ID and evoluttion for HUMANS out of the books?
ID out, yes.
Evolution for humans out, no.
Far to much evidence exists that says humans evolved from other species.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 22:41:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
quote:
Originally posted by Maverick
If we teach only science in science class... Evidence for what, exactly?
And we SHOULD teach only science in science class, period. I think a lot of us would LIKE to believe in a benevolent diety, our lives having more meaning than just "dust to dust" etc. but we see no compelling evidence to, if any at all. I'd like to fantasize I have a million bucks in my checking, too, but I know if I take the fantasy too seriously and try to write a check for 100K, harsh reality awaits. That's the problem with fantasies- the bottom always falls through sooner or later. I'd rather accept a less-glorious realty.
It matters little what anyone wants to believe. I've never been able to understand why religious believers wants to teach that there's more than just the natural world, for example. I mean, isn't everything that exists natural? If ghosts exist (which would surprise me greatly) then they are not supernatural, and the same with various "paranormal" phenomena. Since there is a lack of evidence or reason to support the existence of those things, I suspect that it's mostly just wishful thinking. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 22:42:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by CourseKnot
Gees... could we just take ID and evoluttion for HUMANS out of the books?
Why? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/01/2005 : 23:39:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Maverick
quote:
Originally posted by CourseKnot
Gees... could we just take ID and evoluttion for HUMANS out of the books?
Why?
Because it's a simple way to stop all the arguing. Nevermind what's really true or not... won't anyone think of the children?!?
Seriously, eliminate human evolution from highschool biology classes, and it would remove much of the impetus for getting creationism into biology classes. These people are so insecure in their faith that they're trying to legislate every niggling bit of it, starting with the idea that humans are somehow "special," and not just brilliant primates. If we take human evolution out of the schools, then these insecure parents won't have to worry about someone teaching their kids that they came from dust, and to dust they shall return.
Oooops... |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 00:49:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
It matters little what anyone wants to believe. I've never been able to understand why religious believers wants to teach that there's more than just the natural world, for example. I mean, isn't everything that exists natural? If ghosts exist (which would surprise me greatly) then they are not supernatural, and the same with various "paranormal" phenomena.
I have argued before that the words "supernatural" and "paranormal" are words that have no actual meaning.
Because, as you say, if something actually exists then it is part of the natural world.... and therefore not supernatural or paranormal.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 01:27:28 [Permalink]
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| The Republican Party pushing for teaching ID in school seems to me a little contrary to what they (used to?) stand for (or at least claimed to)... smaller government "which keeps its nose out of the business of citizens" (that's what they like to say about their pro-firearms stances, even now.) Realistically, in no way are they defending the indoctrination of American children who are Muslims, Hindus, American Indians, etc. to the Creationist dogma of THEIR religions- just to the Christian view, and that of only some Christians, at that. Impresses me as sticking their noses in pretty deep, and with no good reason other than pandering to the irrational whimperings of some of their campaign supporters. People fearing a teacher will emotionally traumatize their kids by telling them the truth seems ridiculous to me- I find it hard to believe we're born into this world so psychologically delicate that we need to be fed nonsense in school for our own good at any age. |
Ron White |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 04:36:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
The Republican Party pushing for teaching ID in school seems to me a little contrary to what they (used to?) stand for (or at least claimed to)... smaller government "which keeps its nose out of the business of citizens" (that's what they like to say about their pro-firearms stances, even now.)
Small government, fiscal responsibility, strong privacy protections, less regulation of the free market, reducing welfare for individuals AND companies....
All used to be republican values. None of which are really advocated much by many republicans these days.
Mostly, I think, because they have found a new voting population that is easily manipulated by some simple gay-bashing and a few emotional appeals to "values". i.e. white fundamentalist christians.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 13:53:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
....
Small government, fiscal responsibility, strong privacy protections, less regulation of the free market, reducing welfare for individuals AND companies....
All used to be republican values. None of which are really advocated much by many republicans these days......
It's all in the image, my dear. Ask any Republican and you're likely to find they still buy the image. |
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Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 11:44:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Maverick
quote:
Originally posted by CourseKnot
Gees... could we just take ID and evoluttion for HUMANS out of the books?
Why?
Because it's a simple way to stop all the arguing. Nevermind what's really true or not... won't anyone think of the children?!?
Seriously, eliminate human evolution from highschool biology classes, and it would remove much of the impetus for getting creationism into biology classes. These people are so insecure in their faith that they're trying to legislate every niggling bit of it, starting with the idea that humans are somehow "special," and not just brilliant primates. If we take human evolution out of the schools, then these insecure parents won't have to worry about someone teaching their kids that they came from dust, and to dust they shall return.
Oooops...
One thing that bothers me is that these people are so dishonest. I mean, they are trying to legislate their pseudoscience into science class. They know why they need to go this route, and so do we; their "theories" wouldn't survive the usual scientific method. They probably know that their beliefs are all wrong, otherwise they would be more secure about them. Sometimes they are so desperate that they're using arguments such as "I don't like the idea that we are animals" since such ideas make bullied outcasts take a rifle to school and start shooting people.
I wonder why we can't see human life as special even when we know more and more about our ancestors? If the truth itself downgrades our value, then doesn't that tell us something about ourselves? Do we have to lie to ourselves, and do so knowingly, in order to appreciate ourselves? Isn't that a terrible insult to the real god (not that I believe in any god), that we rather believe in our own version of things? If the universe is the creation of god, then I think the only way to understand it is to actually study it and accept the answers, whatever they may be. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
| Edited by - Maverick on 10/09/2005 11:46:00 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2005 : 14:11:51 [Permalink]
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| I don't think that knowing more about our close relationship with the great apes have dehumanized us. On the contrary, it has bought them closer to us. More and more laws of animal protection are passed. I see this as a good thing. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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