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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 10/20/2005 : 09:00:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Markie:
About ID, it'ce nice to see your skepticism against the doctrine of materialism, the belief that the universe is just material mechanism. Your own consciousness refutes that belief of course. Your own truth quest urge refutes that. It is no accident that we have evolved the ability to faith-reach for realities beyond the merely material.
So consciousness refutes a naturalistic view?
How so?
The quest for a personal truth refutes a naturalistic view?
How so?
I can see how the ability to “faith-reach for realities beyond merely material” can be beneficial as a survival mechanism. We evolve that which serves us in some way. The ability to self delude is no exception. Whatever works…
ID is not science.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2005 : 09:06:37 [Permalink]
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Myself, I leave open the possibility of a god/goddess/what have you. However, as of right now, I have seen no evidence for one. I call myself an a-theist, the opposite of a theist. A theist has beleif in a god or gods. I have no belief in them. That does not mean the existence of one is not possible and that I cannot change my mind at some future date.
At a time in the distant past I was a pentacostal holy-roller - one who was under such pressure I faked speaking in tongues once. Amazingly enough, the gibber I said was translated by someone else. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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| Edited by - pleco on 10/20/2005 09:07:34 |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2005 : 09:49:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse Not only that, Valiant Dancer is a staff member.
Alright, so there are some here like VD and Kil who aren't outright atheists. Glad to hear it, personally. My smart alek comment was based primarily on something I read here maybe a few weeks ago that inferred that this board had its roots in a previous discussion group for atheists or something of the sort.
Mark |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2005 : 10:16:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil So consciousness refutes a naturalistic view? How so?
The quest for a personal truth refutes a naturalistic view?
How so?
If by 'naturalistic' you mean stictly materialistic mechanism, then yes. If by 'how so' you are expecting a answer which involves material mechanism, of course I can't give it. :)
quote:
I can see how the ability to “faith-reach for realities beyond merely material” can be beneficial as a survival mechanism. We evolve that which serves us in some way. The ability to self delude is no exception. Whatever works…
Well I'm of the opinion that whatever is based on untruth or delusion cannot persist for long. Only that which is harmonious with material-transcending truth can endure material disentegration. Yes some delusion may favour material survival of the body, but it hardly profits the soul.
quote:
ID is not science.
I *entirely* agree. Science's job is to relate material phenomena to other material phenomena, not to non material Deity. The latter is the for philosophy and religion.
Mark
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2005 : 10:33:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
Myself, I leave open the possibility of a god/goddess/what have you. However, as of right now, I have seen no evidence for one. I call myself an a-theist, the opposite of a theist. A theist has beleif in a god or gods. I have no belief in them. That does not mean the existence of one is not possible and that I cannot change my mind at some future date.
So you're an atheist until you get some kind of material proof, somehow. Sounds like you're in it for the long term.
quote:
At a time in the distant past I was a pentacostal holy-roller - one who was under such pressure I faked speaking in tongues once. Amazingly enough, the gibber I said was translated by someone else.
It does repulse me to see the abuse taking place in the guise of religion. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2005 : 16:59:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
quote:
Originally posted by Kil So consciousness refutes a naturalistic view? How so?
The quest for a personal truth refutes a naturalistic view?
How so?
If by 'naturalistic' you mean strictly materialistic mechanism, then yes. If by 'how so' you are expecting a answer which involves material mechanism, of course I can't give it. :)
I think Kil meant that he wanted a good explanation for why a consciousness refutes the naturalistic view. Unless you can provide good evidence for that, it's just an opinion of yours. I disagree with you. A good blow to the head damages it. As it does, it also render you unconscious, until the body can repair the damages enough to restore consciousness. I submit that as pretty conclusive evidence that consciousness is the emerging property of a materialistically working connection of neurons.
In another thread, some time ago, we were discussing how long into the future computers had to increase in power in order to make a full simulation of a human brain in real time. Given Moore's Law, we could expect a full-blown real-time simulation of a human brain, in about 25 years.
We have exciting times ahead. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2005 : 17:43:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
quote:
I can see how the ability to “faith-reach for realities beyond merely material” can be beneficial as a survival mechanism. We evolve that which serves us in some way. The ability to self delude is no exception. Whatever works…
Well I'm of the opinion that whatever is based on untruth or delusion cannot persist for long. Only that which is harmonious with material-transcending truth can endure material disintegration. Yes some delusion may favour material survival of the body, but it hardly profits the soul.
The problem with your reasoning is that it assumes the existence of a soul, for which there is no evidence. And in the face of material disintegration, what does material-transcending truth come into play from an evolutionary standpoint?
Once you have reared the offspring you produced, you are irrelevant in the propagation and evolution of the species. If believing in untruth and having delusions gives you an advantage until that point, then it will be a beneficial trait, regardless of that happens to your soul or other material-transcending. Truth or otherwise be damned.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2005 : 18:07:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
So you're an atheist until you get some kind of material proof, somehow. Sounds like you're in it for the long term.
I supposer...why do you say that though? Do you think that the supernatural does not manifest itself in the material, or is it so rare that only the lucky few get to see it? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2005 : 18:36:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse I think Kil meant that he wanted a good explanation for why a consciousness refutes the naturalistic view. Unless you can provide good evidence for that, it's just an opinion of yours. I disagree with you. A good blow to the head damages it. As it does, it also render you unconscious, until the body can repair the damages enough to restore consciousness. I submit that as pretty conclusive evidence that consciousness is the emerging property of a materialistically working connection of neurons.
Yes certainly consciousness of a material being such as ourselves depends upon the material mechanism functioning properly. Consciousness rests delicately upon electrochemical pattern dynamic.
Bang a light bulb hard enough and the light will go out; but the electrical potential is still there, and once the filament is repaired the light will go back on. Similarly apriori mind-spirit potential pervades our space, but it requires the requisite biological substrate to light up in a way unique to that substrate.
quote:
In another thread, some time ago, we were discussing how long into the future computers had to increase in power in order to make a full simulation of a human brain in real time. Given Moore's Law, we could expect a full-blown real-time simulation of a human brain, in about 25 years. We have exciting times ahead.
Yes I look forward to leaps in artificial intelligence progress, but I predict that consciousness will never be attained. Indeed it will be forever a puzzle how a simple cell can react 'intelligently' to it's environment with such low material overhead. That is because even a lowly cell is tapping into a mind source greater than it's parts, something the most advanced computer is not capable of.
Mark
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2005 : 18:56:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Indeed it will be forever a puzzle how a simple cell can react 'intelligently' to it's environment with such low material overhead.
If by 'intelligently' you mean the internal programming that has evolved by trial and error...
I think it will not be a puzzle forever. We already know a lot of how a cell works and how it can and will react. A lot of Nobel Prizes in Medicine has been given to such discoveries.
quote:
That is because even a lowly cell is tapping into a mind source greater than it's parts, something the most advanced computer is not capable of.
That is a claim that needs substantiation.
There are computer simulations that accurately simulates a single neuron. Once the capacity of computers has risen to a few million continuous, simultaneous instances with interconnectivity, we'll have to see about that.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2005 : 19:06:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse The problem with your reasoning is that it assumes the existence of a soul, for which there is no evidence. And in the face of material disintegration, what does material-transcending truth come into play from an evolutionary standpoint?
Once you have reared the offspring you produced, you are irrelevant in the propagation and evolution of the species. If believing in untruth and having delusions gives you an advantage until that point, then it will be a beneficial trait, regardless of that happens to your soul or other material-transcending. Truth or otherwise be damned.
Well I will have to agree with you and Kil, delusion can have its evolutionary value. For instance ghost fear in primitive man probably kept him on his toes and alerted of danger. Taboos of society, even ill conceived ones, probably contributed to order and stability in society.
Such is the path of evolution of consciousness, but the goal is to progress from the superstitions of fear to the enlightenment of love to ones fellows, true religion. As society progresses technologically, if an altruist ethic does not keep pace then society is in big doodoo imo.
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2005 : 19:24:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
So you're an atheist until you get some kind of material proof, somehow. Sounds like you're in it for the long term.
I supposer...why do you say that though? Do you think that the supernatural does not manifest itself in the material, or is it so rare that only the lucky few get to see it?
Well given that you don't perceive Deity now, chances are you won't in the future. (Assuming you're over 40 or so.) Even if a physical 'miracle' occured you would still not believe because afterall its non repeatability renders it as inadmissable evidence to a materialist. Besides, 'miraculous' happenings are *always* open to some other interpretation and I'm sure you would find one.
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2005 : 19:27:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Such is the path of evolution of consciousness, but the goal is to progress from the superstitions of fear to the enlightenment of love to ones fellows, true religion.
Evolution does not have a goal, however, it will tend to adjust toward survival traits in a species.
Evolution having a goal is your religion talking. Evolution is mindless, following the path of necessity.
quote:
As society progresses technologically, if an altruist ethic does not keep pace then society is in big doodoo imo.
That I can agree with. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2005 : 19:30:00 [Permalink]
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You haven't answered the question: why does consciousness refute a naturalistic view?
If you need more time to ponder that question, let us know that you're still considering the question/answer... |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2005 : 20:42:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
You haven't answered the question: why does consciousness refute a naturalistic view?
If you need more time to ponder that question, let us know that you're still considering the question/answer...
If by 'naturalistic' you mean strictly material mechanism then consciousness refutes such a view because consciousness cannot be 'explained' or 'deduced' by mechanistic processes alone.
If however a computer (strict material mechanism) can attain consciousness then that would falsify my belief I think.
The 'feeling' "I am aware", although dependent on material mechanism, transcends it. For instance, no one has derived the feeling "I am aware" from mechanistic first principles.
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