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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
 Posted - 10/02/2005 : 12:18:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
... even included smileys...
I gotta try those, problem is part of time I plug cell into laptop with no graphics for speed- can't see icons-
But markie used text-based smileys. :0)
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 12:27:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
When massive computer networks which share information don't achieve consciousness, don't say I didn't tell you in advance.
Even when incredible quantum computers and their networks are realized, and yet even they don't achieve consciousness, please think of me.
How do we know that massive computer networks do not have consciousness of sorts? How is consciousness different from self-awareness? How do we measure consciousness and self-awareness, and where do we draw the line? Are apes self-aware? Are dogs self-aware? Are octopus, crows, and/or snails self-aware?
Where does your religion draw the line (in comparison to Hinduism, or Wicca)?
I propose that the level of consciousness and self-awareness are functions of the complexity of our neural nets, and the functionality of our input and output devices. In such case, the answer is that the level is analogue, and all living entities forms a whole range of levels. No species especially "blessed" with a soul that sets them apart from anything else in that range, but position in the scale. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 13:21:52 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
... used text-based smileys. :0)
Uhuh! I see the light.
Markie:
How do we know that massive computer networks do not have consciousness...
Because they're nothing more than a (flat) "spider web" of switches flipping more switches. Sure, the switching takes place fast, but at any given instant, every bit-state in the entire Internet, for example, is discretely determined, and can be completely explained by bit-states in a prior instant. There's no mystery at all as to exactly what's happening, no matter how many computers are connected in whatever way... computer networks are no more "conscious" than the wiring used to turn the light of a lamp on, no matter what kind of programs are running (Alan Turing proved this early in the 20th century- it's all just a mass of linear algoriths.) If one were to say the "consciousness" lies "collectively" in the people using it at those instants and includes the hardware, one might as well say the hardware connecting 2 telephones during a conversation is part of a "consciousness", or the vibrating molecules in the air between 2 people talking is... nah.
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Ron White |
| Edited by - ronnywhite on 10/02/2005 13:58:31 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9696 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 13:57:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
Markie:
How do we know that massive computer networks do not have consciousness...
That was me, not Markie.
My point is that we may not recognize certain types of consciousness because we only have our own frame of reference to judge from (and we barely know enough to judge our own). |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 14:29:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Mabuse
quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
Markie:
How do we know that massive computer networks do not have consciousness...
That was me, not Markie.
My point is that we may not recognize certain types of consciousness because we only have our own frame of reference to judge from (and we barely know enough to judge our own).
Sorry about that, folks. Attention to detail, focus (duhhh.) Kansas City 17 Philly 0 2nd Quarter causing anxiety, altering my "consciousness"... must turn TV off.
As I was editing that posting, I was thinking about that perspective and considering that as we're not sure exactly how to define "consciousness," how one does could include networks, and possibly other system (biological or otherwise) around us, some that we're not even aware of. Got it; you're right.
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Ron White |
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markie
Skeptic Friend
Canada
356 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 14:32:54 [Permalink]
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Hi guys
Yeah HH has it right, I was being serious albeit in a light hearted way.
Coursenot, I do cull from a particular source which can be found all over the net. But it is a relgious source and I don't like the idea of bringing it up on a skeptical board. But even in the bible, Johns vision in the book of Revelation (which has been very badly chopped into pieces and distorted), has something to say about the spirit-minds:
Rev 5: And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God, sent out into all the earth. (NAS)
And of course the book of Genesis states that "the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Still is.
Animals are conscious, no doubt. Yes there are degrees of consciousness, but there are new *types* of consciousness appearing as one goes up the pipe. For instace man interfaces with the particular spirit-mind which concerns *worship*, and non of the other animals do so, at all. As such, and for other reasons as well, man is truly unique and has ascension potential after death.
Mark
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26031 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 16:36:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by markie
Yeah HH has it right, I was being serious albeit in a light hearted way.
Well, crap. I'd been reading some of the goings-on in Dover and blew out several industrial-grade irony-, hypocrisy- and spoof-meters. Apparently, my intuition isn't up to the job of separating real woo-woo from fake woo-woo, either.
Of course, I'm not alone. After all, filthy once (at least once) accused verlch of being a spoof. Some frightened creationists have claimed that Kent Hovind is actually an evolutionist out to make creationists look bad. And I'd be remiss if I were to forget to mention Landover Baptist. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 20:58:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by H. Humbert
..."The brain breaks down into little islands that can't talk to one another," said...
I suppose this might raise a few doubts as to the allegedly profound significance of dreams, Freudian stuff etc. Maybe more like curiously random side-effects of short circuiting. |
Ron White |
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Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend
173 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 22:50:50 [Permalink]
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Remember that many dreams are formed in the moment of waking. My Freud and dream studies aren't particularly fresh, but I seem to remember that it is primarily the dreams that are produced by whatever wakes you that are remembered.
Also on the topic of artificial consciousness: http://www.royalinstitutephilosophy.org/think/article.php?num=2
Covers the principal arguments rather nicely in dialogue form. |
Sibling Atom Bomb of Couteous Debate |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 13:05:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Subjectmatter
Also on the topic of artificial consciousness: http://www.royalinstitutephilosophy.org/think/article.php?num=2
Good article. Yea, the computers we have are limited in design by the tools we have to build them out of- namely, semiconductors, which are just fast (binary) relays... pretty crude in comparison to a brain. Maybe some day we'll have some kind of complex anolog logic devices we can emulate brain function with, or maybe we'll decide it's just easier to grow neural ("pieces if brain") tissue in a bottle the way we want it, and have it in/interface it with our iPods (just joking.)
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Ron White |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 13:22:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
quote:
Originally posted by Subjectmatter
Also on the topic of artificial consciousness: http://www.royalinstitutephilosophy.org/think/article.php?num=2
Good article. Yea, the computers we have are limited in design by the tools we have to build them out of- namely, semiconductors, which are just fast (binary) relays... pretty crude in comparison to a brain. Maybe some day we'll have some kind of complex anolog logic devices we can emulate brain function with, or maybe we'll decide it's just easier to grow neural ("pieces if brain") tissue in a bottle the way we want it, and have it in/interface it with our iPods (just joking... people can't even agree on stem cells, imagine what the religious crowd would have to say about that... couldn't toss a broken ipod without worrying about "murdering" someone[thing?])
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Ron White |
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