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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
 Posted - 10/15/2005 : 13:26:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
[I know I said I was done with this, but it's just amazing to watch Gorgo descend into the depths of paranoid delusion.
Right. If you could comprehend, you would see that I was treating witch-boy dancer the same stupid way he was treating me. Giving me shit about Chomsky and such. Calling me anti-authoritarian? Give me a fucking break. I'm 52 years old with grandchildren. Anti-authoritarian? You have no idea what you're talking about.
He seems to find joy in the fact that war kills so I gave him some shit about it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 13:35:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
The first invasion of Iraq was not illegal because Iraq had invaded a neighbouring country, and the UN had ruled that invasion illegal and given NATO countries the authority to invade.
Such authority was not given for the current invasion/occupation.
If the UNSC violates the UN charter, then the war is still technically illegal. The UN Charter states that governments will negotiate. Remember "No negotiation" Bush? He wanted to invade Iraq. He wanted to make sure there was no diplomatic solution. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/15/2005 13:41:37 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 13:37:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
It does make criminals of those who participated in the degradations of prisoners of war in Abu Graib.
Do not forget Guantanamo Base! Non-combattants are still bing held without representation, deprived of both military and civilian rights. |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 13:38:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
If that discussion went anything like this one has, with you putting idiotic words in other people's mouths, building tremendous strawmen and being generally abusive, then it wasn't the question itself which got you banned, Gorgo. It was you.
The only idiotic words I put in anyone's mouth was when I stooped to your level and shot back at Val for doing what you're accusing me of. He obviously reads someone as nutty as David Horowitz, and he evidently gets some joy from seeing people die in illegal wars. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 13:48:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
I would not be surprised to find that Gorgo at some point has brought up Noam Chomsky. He seems to be quite the follower where Chomsky is concerned. There was a poster here about 2 or 3 years ago that got into it with Gorgo, she has since then not posted anything.
No, Val was the only one that brought up Chomsky. Called me a Chomsky robot, and my retorts at him are seen as evil incarnate. I have not stooped to the level of insult Dave and Dude and Val have, and I have not posted half the idiotic circular nonsense that Humbert has. Don't give me your shit. You have no room to talk.
Some of you are reading way too much into my question. You have a lot of emotional baggaged tied to the question. You seem to think everyone has some ulterior motive for everything. You are the ones with paranoid delusions. Lighten up. It's just a fucking question. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 13:50:31 [Permalink]
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quote:
are calling me anti-American just for asking a question" schtick is pure fantasy.
If you scroll back, sir, you will see that I was called anti-american. I did not call anyone else that, that was someone talking to me. And you wonder why I resort to nonsense when I respond to him. He has been far more insulting to me. I have not resorted to idiotic name calling. Yet. Not because I'm not capable, but because I do not wish to cause animosity. This is just a discussion board. Lighten the fuck up, please. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 13:51:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Yes, the U.N. must approve the war unless there is an immediate threat.
That is factually wrong. The US has never given away its authority to declare a war, for any reason, to anyone.
And, if you will recall, the reasons stated by the US government claimed that Iraq WAS an immediate threat.
In order for Bush to actually get impeached, or even accused of a crime in this matter, it will have to be conclusively proven that he deliberately lied about the reasons for invading Iraq (i.e. the WMD intel, etc).
Yeah, most of us think he lied.... but so what? There is good reason to maintain a very strict, and high, standard of evidence for things like this. Otherwise no president would EVER go unimpeached (for political reasons) when the opposition party held the majority in the legislatures.
But if that proof is out there, I SO truly hope it is uncovered soon. So do most of the rest of us here.
We just aren't willing to abandon reason and rationality for political ends, Gorgo.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 13:52:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
they order.
I really don't understand why Gorgo is being deliberately obtuse on this.
Again, please lighten up and stop being quite so paranoid. Not everyone is out to get you. IT'S JUST A QUESTION! |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 13:55:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
That is factually wrong. The US has never given away its authority to declare a war, for any reason, to anyone.
And, if you will recall, the reasons stated by the US government claimed that Iraq WAS an immediate threat.
In order for Bush to actually get impeached, or even accused of a crime in this matter, it will have to be conclusively proven that he deliberately lied about the reasons for invading Iraq (i.e. the WMD intel, etc).
Yeah, most of us think he lied.... but so what? There is good reason to maintain a very strict, and high, standard of evidence for things like this. Otherwise no president would EVER go unimpeached (for political reasons) when the opposition party held the majority in the legislatures.
But if that proof is out there, I SO truly hope it is uncovered soon. So do most of the rest of us here.
We just aren't willing to abandon reason and rationality for political ends, Gorgo.
No. You are wrong as I have stated repeatedly. He does not even have to be shown a liar. As a member of the United Nations, each nation agrees to abide by the UN Charter. The U.S. Constitution makes the UN Charter the law of the land. The only way a country can take matters into its own hands in this situation would have been to remove an immediate threat and then the matter rests with the UN. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 10/15/2005 13:56:18 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 14:20:01 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
While any government has some level of corruption the US appears to be the evil empire, no matter what approach it takes to foreign policy. He also likes to point out the violations of International Law the US commits. As I continue to bring up, the US has not abrogated sovereignty to any international body, therefore the International Law of which he speaks is essentially in his mind. There is no treaty the US has subjected itself to that states when the US can and can not declare war.
America was invited to place itself under the jurisdiction of an International Court of Law, where war criminals are supposed to be tried. By international standard. However, the US government turned that down. This only enforce the international view of the US as The Big Bully who refuse to play by the rules everyone else agrees to.
It is because of this scumbags like Slobodan Milosevich (former president of Yugoslavia) declared that he didn't recognise the international court where he's tried, as lawful.
quote:
Only how it must conduct a war, treat prisoners of war, etc. Abu Graib was a violation of the Geneva Conventions and the US must hold itself to this standard. Unfortunately, people being what they are, aren't necessarily rational enough to realize why this is necessary for our military.
If the US does not recognise the right of an International Court to prosecute US militarise, and the US military/civil courts don't go to the bottom of it...
How can anyone in the entire world trust USA to do the right thing?
Abu Graib in all its gory glory, you have problems close to home.
quote:
Anyway, again Gorgo, if the US has not abandoned its right to declare war, the war itself is not illegal, just not rational. Therefore, the military service members are not guilty of committing any crime, nor is the US government.
Only in the eyes of Americans.
The International Community has a different opinion.
quote:
It is the right of a sovereign nation to declare war.
The International Community has a different opinion. Not under any circumstances. However, self defence is a valid reason.
It is basic (un)common sense. You just don't walk up to a guy on the street and punch him in the face. You just do not invade other countries without a fucking good reason. Oil is not a good reason. Attacking civilian targets in a terrorist action like the World Trade Center gives you good reason, but that was Afghanistan not Iraq.
quote:
The standards for treatment of prisoners of war are open for argument. And as with Nuremberg, the soldiers themselves are subject to trial for war crimes, which is something the US has consented to as signatories of the Geneva Convention.
Yet, the US military broke those conventions blatantly and overtly when they released the pictures of the captured Saddam Hussein being examined by medical staff. That was a violation of POW's basic rights of privacy. I don't recall exactly what paragraph of the Geneva Convention, but it was mentioned in a documentary shortly after the release of the pictures.
And again... What about Guantanamo? |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 14:42:24 [Permalink]
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No, Gorgo, the joy only exists inside your head, not Val's. The lack of comprehension is yours, also. The fact that you continue to repeat these inane things demonstrates your religious zeal on this matter.quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
The only idiotic words I put in anyone's mouth was when I stooped to your level and shot back at Val for doing what you're accusing me of.
Baloney. When I told you that our lack of communications was your problem, you told me that I was assuming you're an idiot. Again, you appear to be working with a distinct deficit of facts.quote:
If you scroll back, sir, you will see that I was called anti-american.
After careful research, I found the the first instance of the phrase "anti-american" in this thread:quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Again, I appreciate someone that doesn't need to get personal or tell me how anti-american I am for asking questions.
The second instance is actually "un-american":quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
It's amazing that it's considered Un-American to ask the question though and create such a hysterical reaction from people like Valiant Dancer.
The only other uses of the phrase came after that, replying to the second instance. In no case has anyone labeled you as anti- or un-american, Gorgo. It simply hasn't happened. You are delusional.quote:
I have not resorted to idiotic name calling. Yet.
Once again, the facts do not support your statement:quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
...witch-boy dancer...
But more important are the insults you've been throwing all over the place which aren't silly name-calling. For example:quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I understand your fear of talking about things you'd rather people kept quiet about, though.
Name-calling isn't the issue; the fact that you can't seem to keep your 52-year-old grandfatherish cool after having the chutzpah to lecture about how people should be nice or get out is the issue. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 21:26:53 [Permalink]
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Only in the eyes of Americans.
The International Community has a different opinion.
That, Mab, is a falsehood. The "international community", as you put it, is of no one opinion on this matter.
Do you think that China doesn't reserve the right to declare war? What about Pakistan? India? Dozens of African countries? Russia? Iran? Saudi Arabia? Israel? North Korea?
What you mean to say is that a few countries in Europe have a different opinion. Stop projecting your opinion onto others and apply some critical thought.
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You just don't walk up to a guy on the street and punch him in the face.
And the rules of war wouldn't allow such a thing, if you are analogizing countries to people. First you would have to issue warning of your intent, by declaring war and issuing your reasons. A sucker punch, so to speak, would be a pretty clear violation of the law.
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As a member of the United Nations, each nation agrees to abide by the UN Charter. The U.S. Constitution makes the UN Charter the law of the land.
No, it doesn't Gorgo. Ratified TREATIES are considered the law of the land. The UN and it's charter aren't a fucking treaty. Get that through your head.
quote:
Posted by Dr MabAmerica was invited to place itself under the jurisdiction of an International Court of Law, where war criminals are supposed to be tried. By international standard. However, the US government turned that down. This only enforce the international view of the US as The Big Bully who refuse to play by the rules everyone else agrees to.
I consider myself to be a very liberal person. But I agree with the decision to not participate in any such "court".
quote:
If the US does not recognise the right of an International Court to prosecute US militarise, and the US military/civil courts don't go to the bottom of it...
How can anyone in the entire world trust USA to do the right thing?
Abu Graib in all its gory glory, you have problems close to home.
Here, I agree with you Mab. We are fucking up bigtime by not holding the right people accountable. Lindsey England? Yeah, we blame the local retard and put her on trial... Instead of blaming the government who sets the policy and endorses torture openly in internal memos.. It makes me sick.
quote:
Yet, the US military broke those conventions blatantly and overtly when they released the pictures of the captured Saddam Hussein being examined by medical staff. That was a violation of POW's basic rights of privacy. I don't recall exactly what paragraph of the Geneva Convention, but it was mentioned in a documentary shortly after the release of the pictures.
And again... What about Guantanamo?
And I agree again. Those photos of Saddam should never have been released. They should have been a part of a private medical file, and somebody should be charged with a crime for releasing them. As for Gitmo, I agree. We have no right to hold people without due process. They need to either bring charges against them, in open court, or release them.
In all seriousness, I have confidence that the 2006 US election cycle will see some changes in the legislature here. 2008 will probably see us still with a republican president, but it will be somebody more moderate. Or so I will hope anyway. For all our sakes I hope I am calling it right.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 22:00:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I have not posted half the idiotic circular nonsense that Humbert has.
Up yours.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/15/2005 : 22:05:24 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
In no case has anyone labeled you as anti- or un-american, Gorgo. It simply hasn't happened. You are delusional.
I knew this, but thank you for verifying it. If Gorgo can't admit he is clearly delusional after this, there is no hope for him.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2005 : 23:29:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Yes, the U.N. must approve the war unless there is an immediate threat. Please read my link on about the second page. Had the UNSC not followed some reasonable track towards solving whatever imaginary problem existed, then you might have a case. However, you do not.
No Gorgo, that would require that the US has given it's soveriegnty over to the UN. It has not. The manner in which the US declares war, conducts itself during said war, and treats prisoners is covered under the Geneva Conventions. The ability to declare war, is not limited by those conventions. The UN can attempt to avert armed conflict or resolve it once begun, however, they have no authority to support their declarations, nor the ability to enforce such declarations. In other words, the UN is not a governing body to the United States. It's not the 4th branch of government. You give the UN too much authority, authority it does not have. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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