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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 10/02/2005 : 17:21:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
It is the Republicans that have talking points claiming the Dems have no specifics, an outright falsehood. Where did your friend look and just what did he look for?
Dunno, but I think this friend-of-a-friend was trying to guage things by examining the liberal blogosphere. I had many other things on my mind at the time, and wasn't paying too much attention, especially since my friend came to me with this because I'm more "in tune" with politics than he is (ha!).
Thanks for the CNN link. I'll pass it along. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 20:33:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
And then there are 1000 other cases. It isn't all black and white. There is a huge section of gray.
To me, this is where the war in Iraq lies. I agree, we should not have attacked and I also agree that Bush doing so was an illegal action. But it is not something that is black and white. I can understand that their may be other factors that I am not aware of, classified or not. I can understand that others may have different opinions on the war, and in fact, other people do.
Nothing is all black/white. Some things are more clear than others, however.
The obligation to disobey an unlawfull order is one that I, personally, understood well when I was in the military. It goes like this: You are ordered to do a thing. If you refuse, you must be 100% sure that the order is illegal. Because you WILL end up standing trial for refusing to carry out an order.
As individual troops there is no question that you will obey any order to go anywhere you are told to go. Invading countries does not fall into an area of decision making that is open to individual troops. The kind of orders that you can refuse are all about individual actions. Shoot at unarmed civillains? Refuse. Toss POWs into an oven? Refuse. this is the level of decisionmaking that individual troops bear responsibility in. Not in the levels that make decisions about who to fight against.
"We The People" are ultimately responsible for those decisions.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 21:11:14 [Permalink]
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| I think our invasion of Iraq meets the definition of an illegal war. We claimed they didn't comply with the agreements made when they surrendered after the Kuwait invasion but in reality Iraq had complied at least to the major weapons restrictions. We made false accusations and then invaded. Seems pretty illegal to me. |
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GeeMack
SFN Regular
USA
1093 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 21:17:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricky...quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo...
That's what Nuremberg was about, wasn't it? Countries do not invade one another, and troops do not obey illegal orders. Attacking other countries is illegal. This was a criminal action. It was not a "mistake" as many say. It is illegal. Article six (I think) makes treaties the law of the land. Therefore it is a violation of criminal and domestic law.
In all cases? If a countries is lobbing missiles at you from behind their border, do you have the right to attack? Or if a country threatens to do so? Do you have the right to disable their rockets to protect yourself?
And then there are 1000 other cases. It isn't all black and white. There is a huge section of gray.
To me, this is where the war in Iraq lies. I agree, we should not have attacked and I also agree that Bush doing so was an illegal action. But it is not something that is black and white. I can understand that their may be other factors that I am not aware of, classified or not. I can understand that others may have different opinions on the war, and in fact, other people do.
No, not in all cases. There are cases where it is appropriate to declare war against another nation. Those cases are decided by the United Nations Security Council.
But Iraq wasn't lobbing any missiles. They didn't threaten to lob missiles. There weren't any WMD, so they had no missiles to lob. They weren't connected to 9/11. They weren't assisting, supporting, or sheltering the Al-Qaeda. They were compliant with UN weapons inspectors. The United Nations Security Council did not approve of this war. Iraq presented no threat of any sort to the safety and security of the citizens of the United States.
I wonder where within that huge section of gray we should place this illegal, unprovoked, and unnecessary act of terror against a non-threatening nation. I'm not sure which of those 1000 other cases can be used to support the occupation of an innocent nation and the murder of 100,000 of its citizens. Is it a little bit acceptable?... sort of okay?... almost right? Somehow I don't see a shade of gray that seems appropriate.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 04:54:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
As individual troops there is no question that you will obey any order to go anywhere you are told to go.
So, individual troops only have an obligation to disobey orders as long as it doesn't get them in trouble with their superiors? I don't know why that would be the determining factor.
I'm not saying we should take anyone out and hang them, but why isn't what they're doing labeled criminal?
Gang members are duped into being gang members. Why, just because they're being duped do we hold soldiers up to a different standard? Why is ignorance an excuse in their case? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 07:01:13 [Permalink]
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I think it's pretty clear that when the Congress "approves" sending troops into another country, the troops themselves aren't going to be able to claim that it's an illegal order which should be disobeyed. So, the troops risk prison time for refusing. And now some here want them to go to prison for not risking going to prison.
And, it's as if you're expecting these individuals to be well-versed in international law, and go where international law isn't going. Where is the outrage from other governments that the U.S. is committing an illegal act?
And the gang analogy fails because the U.S. citizenry, through their elected representatives, doesn't control the gangs. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 07:20:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
And, it's as if you're expecting these individuals to be well-versed in international law, and go where international law isn't going. Where is the outrage from other governments that the U.S. is committing an illegal act?
And the gang analogy fails because the U.S. citizenry, through their elected representatives, doesn't control the gangs.
Who are these people here that are calling for anyone to go to prison?
I am saying that ignorance is no excuse for any other crime. Why is ignorance an excuse for what appears to be a crime here? Certainly it is something to be considered when talking about what to do about the crime, but is it still not a crime?
The U.S. citizenry does not control what the president does, either. Why does that have anything to do with anything? Is it a crime to attack other countries? Yes. Do soldiers have a duty to disobey illegal orders according to international law? Yes.
Again, I'm not saying that anyone should or shouldn't do anything differently. I'm asking a question. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 07:28:23 [Permalink]
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[quoteWhere is the outrage from other governments that the U.S. is committing an illegal act?
[/quote]
There is plenty of outrage from the world community that the U.S. is committing an illegal act. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 07:49:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
Who are these people here that are calling for anyone to go to prison?
Criminals tend to go to prison. Don't be obtuse.quote:
I am saying that ignorance is no excuse for any other crime. Why is ignorance an excuse for what appears to be a crime here? Certainly it is something to be considered when talking about what to do about the crime, but is it still not a crime?
Why don't you give us the proper citations from the code of military justice where it says that when the President and Congress both say, "go to war," but the soldier believes it to be an illegal war, he/she must disobey or be a criminal themselves? How many of the troops believed it to be an illegal war, anyway?quote:
The U.S. citizenry does not control what the president does, either.
So you're saying that even if Congress explicitly said, "we do not approve of going to war in Iraq," the President still could send in the troops?quote:
Why does that have anything to do with anything?
It's not obivous? The troops look to their leaders for guidance. When Congress says, "yeah, it's okay to invade Iraq," the troops are supposed to say, "no, it isn't?" How often are troops also scholars of international law, Gorgo?quote:
Is it a crime to attack other countries? Yes.
Then why were there any countries which agreed to help?quote:
Do soldiers have a duty to disobey illegal orders according to international law? Yes.
And how do they make the distinction between legal and illegal when they're getting conflicting signals?quote:
Again, I'm not saying that anyone should or shouldn't do anything differently. I'm asking a question.
And I'm asking questions in return.quote:
There is plenty of outrage from the world community that the U.S. is committing an illegal act.
Yeah, but the "world community" doesn't make international law. Can you name any single government ambassador who has stood up in the U.N. and specifically called for Bush to answer for war crimes? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 07:56:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Criminals tend to go to prison. Don't be obtuse.
I have no reason to draw such a conclusion, but just because criminals "tend to go to prison" does not mean that anyone here has suggested that anyone SHOULD go to prison.
quote:
Why don't you give us the proper citations from the code of military justice where it says that when the President and Congress
Tell me first why any of this is relevant. Have we not established that people who commit crimes cannot say that they were "just following orders?" It doesn't work for Nazis, it doesn't work for gang members, why do you think it works for anyone else? The Constitution of the United States makes treaties the law of the land. It is a violation of the U.N. Charter, Nuremberg and several other international treaties and charters to attack other countries. Nuremberg said that "following orders" is not an excuse.
quote:
Yeah, but the "world community" doesn't make international law. Can you name any single government ambassador who has stood up in the U.N. and specifically called for Bush to answer for war crimes?
Why is this relevant? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 07:58:11 [Permalink]
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The troops in Germany looked to their leaders for guidance as well. They were told that "just following orders" is not an excuse.
Even if it is an excuse that gets them out of punishment, it does not mean that what they are doing is not a crime. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 08:01:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
I am saying that ignorance is no excuse for any other crime. Why is ignorance an excuse for what appears to be a crime here? Certainly it is something to be considered when talking about what to do about the crime, but is it still not a crime?
Don't be an ass. Soldiers are accountable for their actions on an individual level. If the president orders an invasion, the troops go. They are only accountable for how they conduct themselves personally. They would be commiting a crime if they refused such orders.
As for determining if an entire war is illegal, that is nothing individual soldiers are responsible for, nor should we expect them to be responsible for it. That is an isue for congress, the president, and other nations to decide. And the people accountable for actions on this level are the ones who make the decisions on this level. i.e. The President, Sec. of Defense, etc...
If you can't understand that, then I reccomend joining up for a tour of duty. Tell your commanders that you refuse to go to Iraq and fight because it is an illegal war.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 08:05:32 [Permalink]
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I'm not sure why you think most of what you write is relevant, Dave.
Kofi Annan has said that invading Iraq is a crime, other world leaders have put the same thing in more diplomatic ways. So what? Does that make it less of a crime? You ask why no one has argued with it, ignoring the millions that have. You seem to think they're irrelevant. Why do governments not call for the execution of George Bush? I don't know. Ask them. Maybe because they wish to be above the law as well, and maybe because they're afraid of what the U.S. government can do to them.
I'm not asking for anyone to go to prison, including George Bush. However, what he has done is not a "mistake." It is clearly a crime against humanity. Why are those who participate in that not considered criminals as much as anyone else? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 08:06:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Don't be an ass.
And the horse you rode in on. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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