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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 10/10/2005 : 09:52:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
They (the individual soldiers) are not criminals because they haven't commited a crime.
If you can't grasp that....
If I can't grasp that then what? I'm an idiot and an "ass" and you're not?
What you are saying is that we do not consider them criminals because we do not consider them to be criminals. This war is a crime. Nuremberg has established that following orders does not excuse crimes. Granted, they did not prosecute anyone of lower rank for illegally invading countries, but lack of prosecution does not mean that it is not a crime. The history of law in this country has established that ignorance is no excuse.
I'm not promoting the idea that these people should be executed. In fact, just the opposite but I'm too obtuse and too much of an ass to attempt to discuss that with someone so bright and kind as yourself.
[/quote]
Gorgo,
The soldiers are not being prosecuted because they are not engaging in war crimes as defined by the Geneva Convention or any other war crimes tribunal at Nuremburg. (With the exception of Dornitz who was prosecuted based on the Laconia Order which allied commanders said in his place they would likewise issue.)
The war is illegal. The way the US is fighting it is not illegal. Therefore, the Commander in Cheif is culpable for ordering them into action, not the individual soldier who defends his position, defends himself, or attacks a position held by armed enemy combatants. The individual soldiers who are being tried for war crimes (Abu Gharib) committed acts above thier legal orders against unarmed detainees.
Likewise, acts committed in the fog of war are excusable. Inaccurate ordinance drops are rightfully blamed on the technology of the item, not the willful misconduct of the individual soldier.
Blaming the cog for functioning as designed in addition to the person who set the machine in motion is illogical.
Like Vietnam, we cannot blame people who are doing a thankless job for the decisions of a government that put them in motion. I thank them for their service and honoring their agreement with this country. I do not see them as defending freedom in this venture. I see them as fulfilling their commitment to this country. That the country is wrong in this undertaking is tangetal to their service.
As a registered regular voter, I see my obligation to ask my goverment if this trip was really necessary. And ask why brave men and women are placed in harms way for no good reason. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 09:54:03 [Permalink]
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| Respect? When have I not shown respect to anyone? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 10:37:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
As a registered regular voter, I see my obligation to ask my goverment if this trip was really necessary. And ask why brave men and women are placed in harms way for no good reason.
Thank you for your reasoned and polite reply. There is no reason to ask a group of criminals if "this trip was really necessary." They are criminals. Would they agree that they are criminals? I don't think so.
I'll think about the rest some more. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 11:16:24 [Permalink]
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I fail to see what the controversy is, here. As he has no control over the lawful orders given him, a private soldier nor an officer is not a criminal unless he committs some act covered as criminal by the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). As far as I konw, all of the major armies of the world have similiar.
The criminals we speak of here are those originating those orders, not those carrying them out, and I'd love nothing better than to see the whole, corrupt, bloody-handed lot clapped in irons and hustled off to the Hague to explain themselves to a war crimes commition.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 11:28:22 [Permalink]
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From the Rude Pundit:
quote:
10/8/2005
Because It Needs To Be Said:
How soon before the Pentagon announces that today's earthquake killed the number two man in al-Qaeda?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 11:46:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
When you look at a group of people who were forced into a situation that some of them didn't want to be in, who scarifice their lives, and then call them criminals.
And who has done this? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 11:50:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
As a registered regular voter, I see my obligation to ask my goverment if this trip was really necessary. And ask why brave men and women are placed in harms way for no good reason.
Thank you for your reasoned and polite reply. There is no reason to ask a group of criminals if "this trip was really necessary." They are criminals. Would they agree that they are criminals? I don't think so.
I'll think about the rest some more.
[/quote]
Ah, but there is dissent on the hill, so there is some hope for reasoning with the legislature. The ones who can impeach such a person and hold them accountable for high crimes and misdemeanors. I don't think you'd get much disagreement with an indictment of the Executive branch.
Some still believe the word of the President, but his word is getting weary as can be evidenced with the response to an Executive branch threat of veto for an amendment on military procurements which reaffirm the Geneva Convention. It passed the Senate 90-9. Two prominent Republicans who have combat experience insisted on it's passage. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 12:01:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
When you look at a group of people who were forced into a situation that some of them didn't want to be in, who scarifice their lives, and then call them criminals.
And who has done this?
[/quote]
"So, individual troops only have an obligation to disobey orders as long as it doesn't get them in trouble with their superiors? I don't know why that would be the determining factor.
I'm not saying we should take anyone out and hang them, but why isn't what they're doing labeled criminal?
Gang members are duped into being gang members. Why, just because they're being duped do we hold soldiers up to a different standard? Why is ignorance an excuse in their case?" -- Gorgo, Page 2
Under UCMJ, an officer or enlisted man may refuse an illegal order. The problem here is proving that it was an illegal order. As far as the chain of command, they were not told to violate any part of the UCMJ. They were activated and sent into a combat area. They were not told to rape, pillage, or torture people. They were not told to violate the Geneva Convention. In fact those personell implicated in violations of the Geneva Convention have been arrested and are in the process of being tried for war crimes. (Abu Gharib and another soldier's fatal shooting of an unarmed and wounded Iraqi insurgent.)
Only fools and those who have not seen the horrors of war relish combat. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 12:13:14 [Permalink]
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quote:
Only fools and those who have not seen the horrors of war relish combat.
All those things you quote me on are questions, not statements. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I did not make the statement that troops are or are not one thing or another. I asked a question. Why is asking a question considered disrespect? Is it because this is a sacred cow of some kind? Why? |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 12:42:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
quote:
Only fools and those who have not seen the horrors of war relish combat.
All those things you quote me on are questions, not statements. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I did not make the statement that troops are or are not one thing or another. I asked a question. Why is asking a question considered disrespect? Is it because this is a sacred cow of some kind? Why?
Within context, your questions indicate that you hold the individual soldiers culpable for going to Iraq and fighting there.
I don't consider it disrespect, I consider blaming the troops for something beyond their control to be illogical and improper. It is not a sacred cow of any type. Rather it is the analysis of the command structure of militaries in general and historical functionality of military units. Added for emphasis is cursory knowledge of the UCMJ.
I have been trying to answer the questions based on my knowledge of the military and the UCMJ. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 12:45:55 [Permalink]
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Well, again, they are just questions and I have not "blamed" anyone for anything. I have said that George Bush is a criminal, but even that itself is not "blaming" it is statement of fact.
Telling me that the UCMJ says that this is not illegal does not answer my question. It says that the U.S. considers itself above international law. My question is why do we not consider this illegal?
International law says that this is an illegal act. Nuremberg has shown that "just following orders" is not an excuse. Ignorance is not an excuse. Soldiers have a duty to defy illegal orders. It is not a legal order to illegally attack another country. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2005 : 12:56:23 [Permalink]
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Gorgo, the question "have you stopped beating your wife yet?" states (uses as a premise) that you did beat your wife. Your questions are loaded with incorrect premises, so your defense of "I asked a question" is transparently insulting (it shows that you think the people conversing with you are idiots). For example,quote:
Why do we put these people up on a pedestal when what they are doing is illegal and destructive?
We don't do any such thing, and has been shown to you (several times), the soldiers who did nothing more than go to war are not doing anything illegal. Given these incorrect premises for your question, it's impossible to answer in a way with which you will not find easy fault. Which, given your history in just this one thread, you will use as an opportunity to ridicule, despite your protestations that such behaviour doesn't belong in this discussion, you seem to enjoy. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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