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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
 Posted - 11/07/2005 : 20:25:17 [Permalink]
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Kil
The term "liberal" is now an ad hominem attack? I can remember when you guys were proud of the label. Incidently, I don't recall using the term "liberal" in any recent postings. vrwc |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 21:21:28 [Permalink]
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quote:
Trish
Most unchivalrous of me to latch on to your allusion to unruly grammar. Sorry if it appeared patronizing , but you appeared to be frustrated by it by it; that you felt debate was not going in the direction you believe it should. I infer your desire is to debate, not the anti-communist battle of the 50's, but some activity of the Bush administration that you consider unfair or even unconstitutional. If so, framing it in terms of "McCarthyism" is not going to address your concerns (which I'll be happy to discuss seperately).vrwc
There are limitations to the written word. Which is why I was attempting to clarify your position. My confusion arose from your commentary with regard to thanking me for illustrating your point. The point was not one I understood to be adressed by my post. So, my mind basically jumped to the conclusion that either you or I had misunderstood the other.
A debate simply takes the direction in which the discussion leads. I made reference to my lack of proper grammar in the last line which, for me, typically denotes sarcasm.
McCarthyism, as an historical reference, has a specific connotation. It was this meaning I intended to be understood. I am detached from the happenings of the 1950s by at least one generation. The rhetoric used by the Bush administration is similar in nature and desired effect that I viewed McCarthyism as a proper basis for comparison. UnAmerican Activities/Sound Science/Data Quality. These are terms that are used to mislead the individual with regard to certain aspects of a concept. UnAmerican Activities and freedom of speech/expression are not compatible concepts. The Committee on UnAmerican Activities suppressed the rights of individuals to freedom of speech, expression, political beliefs, etc. The concepts of sound science and data quality are being used in the same fashion to suppress information that does not toe the party line.
Popper in the Open Society shows that the free exchange of ideas is necessary to maintain a free and open society. The very thing that was created by the Constitution. Suppression of the rights of the individual is the first step down the road to despotism. Suppression of ideas that run counter to your belief is not an open societial structure but closed.
Even the practices of the former Soviet Union are brought to mind by the practices of the current administration. They treat the scienctific process in much the same fashion as the former Soviet Union treated genetics. Though there was a general consensus with regard to the theory of evolution, the Soviets chose to follow Lysenko. Lysenko's conclusions on genetics were incorrect and seriously retarded the growth of the Soviet scientific community. Not just in that what Lysenko presented was incorrect, but rather in an atmosphere where scientific endeavours were expected to have an outcome that supported the Communist Party. The free and open exchange of ideas was suppressed.
Despite his dislike of communism, McCarthy used the 'us against them' argument to support his own form of suppression of a free and open exchange of ideas.
Suppression of a view point that runs counter to what another views as right and proper is despotism. The Bush administration has hampered the US's ability to compete in the world on stem cell research. There are not 60 viable stem cell lines available for research as he claimed in his first term, there are only about 22 that are available to recieve Federal funding for research.
Inhofe's arguments for sound science and data quality have damaged our environment as well. Farm raised salmon and wild salmon are not the same species of fish. (Not to mention that some farm raised salmon are fed dye containing products so their flesh is more pink. One shudders to think about it.) Farm raised salmon are expected to be unable to survive the salmon run. Though more concern is raised with regard to farm raised salmon preying upon wild salmon young. This administration continually shows it's lack of foresight by being unable to see the affect of one species dying upon all the other species.
This lack of foresight goes beyond the just the environmental.
Apologies, welcome to my rant or ramble, whatever. Hopefully you can see why I brought to mind the concept of McCarthyism. I expect that both my grandmother and father would have had quite a bit to say on the subject, were they still around. The row would have been interesting to sit back and watch. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 22:27:47 [Permalink]
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[quote]Originally posted by Trish
...Suppression of a view point that runs counter to what another views as right and proper is despotism. The Bush administration...
Trish makes some excellent points, and that passage seems to summarize her thoughts as to how the Bush Aministration have themselves "earned" the parallel you refer to as used by the Democrats in a dishonest manner. It sounds as though maybe the Republicans are at least as guilty... is she right??? If so, it disturbs me that the Bush Administration operates in a fashion which inhibits scientific progress which could result in enhacing the quality and longevity of untold lives, without valid reason, for one thing!
vrwc, you are correct- I am observing with interest because I'm probably not as informed on these matters as are most others here, and doubts remain in my mind as to the true nature of political discourse in this country... I am most impressed that you, too, are willing to discuss specifics, as opposed to insisting upon the shallow rhetorical lip service common to network news, and those who's mindsets have been cast-in-stone for decades. Although I admit that I am somewhat-prejudiced against your viewpoint, I strive to retain an open mind, and I hope to hear your counterexamples on this issue.
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 22:53:45 [Permalink]
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quote]Originally posted by vrwc
Kil
The term "liberal" is now an ad hominem attack? I can remember when you guys were proud of the label. Incidently, I don't recall using the term "liberal" in any recent postings. vrwc
The term “liberal” has been is used as an ad hominem attack by the right so regularly that I find it hard to believe that you have never come across its being used that way. Perhaps it just didn't register. And I didn't say that you, in particular, use it that way. But it was you who said, “Since name-calling is a staple of leftist argument…” which implies that the right doesn't do exactly the same thing. Baloney!
For your information:
Contemporary use of "liberal" by political opponents. Source, Wikipedia:
quote:
Many conservatives, especially in the right-wing media, use the term liberal as a slur. When used in this politically motivated sense, the word is supposed to imply an overly free-spirited, unaccountable, and compromised character, or someone in favor of vast and needless government intrusion into peoples lives (see Big government).
In the 1960s, the catch phrase was "bleeding heart" liberals, who opposed the Vietnam War, or "knee-jerk" liberals, implying that liberals loved Blacks, poor people, criminals, and foreigners indiscriminately, without thinking. In the 1990s, the phrase was "tax-and-spend" liberals, with the implication that liberals were in favor of taxing the rich in order to redistribute wealth to the poor. Republican talk radio host Rush Limbaugh is often credited with the perpetuation of these phrases. (See also Politicized issues, propaganda). Republican political consultant Arthur J. Finkelstein took this technique to its fullest extent, repeating the word "liberal" in negative television commercials as frequently as possible, such as in this mid-1990s example:
That's liberal. That's Jack Reed. That's wrong. Call liberal Jack Reed and tell him his record on welfare is just too liberal for you. [2]
U.S. conservatives in recent years, often those of the Republican Party, sometimes use liberal to describe anyone who is a member of or supports any policy of the Democratic Party. Being a Democrat does not guarantee one is a liberal, as there are many within the party who are centrist and even a few who could be considered right-wing.
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Chippewa
SFN Regular
USA
1496 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2005 : 22:55:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
...My impression is that the political left, once self-described as the intellectual pinnacle, has now descended to substituting strawman allegations and simple name calling in place of discussing issues. Look back over the postings and note how many center on simple invective against Bush, against an author I cited and even an accusation that I'm a simple purveyor of "prepackaged" talking points...
Please note however, this observation implies that the folks posting in this one thread are in "the political left". This unconsciously implies that former notions of "conservatives" and "liberals" have these days moved into "the left" in comparison to the more radical "neocon" Bush administration and its rightwing supporters, such as Ann Coulter as well as others mentioned in earlier posts.
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Diversity, independence, innovation and imagination are progressive concepts ultimately alien to the conservative mind.
"TAX AND SPEND" IS GOOD! (TAX: Wealthy corporations who won't go poor even after taxes. SPEND: On public works programs, education, the environment, improvements.) |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2005 : 01:54:49 [Permalink]
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Wikipedia on McCarthy:
quote:
In the fall of 1953, McCarthy's committee began its ill-fated inquiry into the United States Army. It attempted to uncover a spy ring in the Army Signal Corps, but failed. The committee came to focus its attention on an Army dentist, Irving Peress, who took the Fifth Amendment twenty times under sustained questioning. Peress was accused of recruiting military personnel into the Communist Party. It is known for certain that Peress refused to answer questions on Defense Department forms concerning membership in "subversive organizations", and that the Army Surgeon General had recommended his dismissal early in 1953. McCarthy expressed serious concerns that Peress had not been discharged after that recommendation, but instead had been promoted to the rank of Major.
In examining this latter question, McCarthy brought hostile media attention upon himself concerning his treatment of General Ralph W. Zwicker. Among other things, McCarthy compared Zwicker's intelligence to that of a "five-year-old child", and stated that Zwicker was "not fit to wear the uniform of a General." Charles Potter was one of the few Republican Senators to speak out against McCarthy. He later wrote a book called Days Of Shame in which he lambasted his fellow Senator. He said that McCarthy was nothing but a bully. He was enraged by his treatment of General Zwicker and pointed out that the man was a decorated hero. Early in 1954, the Army accused McCarthy and Cohn of pressuring the Army to give favorable treatment to another former aide and friend of Cohn's, G. David Schine. McCarthy claimed that the accusation was made in bad faith, in retaliation for his questioning of Zwicker the previous year.
McCarthy and Joseph Welch at the Army-McCarthy HearingsThe Senate convened the Army-McCarthy Hearings into the matter, which was broadcast live and on television. In one memorable interchange, McCarthy revealed that the Army's attorney general, Joseph Welch, had hired a lawyer who had previously worked for a Communist-linked group. (This revelation was explicitly in retaliation for Welch's combative questioning.) This led to Welch's famous rebuke: "Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" These proceedings have been recorded in the documentary film Point of Order! The Senate voted 67 to 22 on December 2, 1954, to condemn Joseph McCarthy for "conduct that tends to bring the Senate into dishonor and disrepute", the first time a senator was censured for actions in a past session of Congress.
This is one of the better, unbiased histories I've read of this part of the era and McCarthy himself. It was an era that was all but hysterical over the communist threat, real or imagined. And of course, some of it was real. There really were spies, but many (most?) of the lives McCarthy destroyed in pursuit of them were guilty of no more than left-wing beliefs and associations.
Be assured vrwc, that I was in no way influenced by the media, even though they were vastly more reliable than the corporate toadies of today. I was a lot more interested in girls than communists. What I knew at the time was gleaned from adults that followed the situation, notably my mother, who, incidently, was about as conservative a Republican as any you'd be likely to find outside of a Klan meeting. She hated McCarthy and all of his works.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2005 : 06:33:12 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
...against an author I cited...
In my case, my only intent was to draw your attention to your political hypocrisy. That you choose not to engage in that discussion (perhaps by finding a source of information on the alleged "McCarthy myth" who doesn't stoop to erecting strawmen about, and name-calling of, her political opponents) speaks volumes to me about your willingness to debate "the issues." Surely the political bias of your source for a particular political point is itself a political issue (if not an issue of fact). |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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CourseKnot
Skeptic Friend
USA
82 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2005 : 10:36:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Trish
I'm a conservationist, prior military, atheist, pro-choice/abortion shouldn't be the primary option, moderate, unaffiliated to any political party, individual.
Huh... this describes me to a "T". |
Just flying through space with the rest of you... |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2005 : 20:13:18 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by CourseKnot
quote:
Originally posted by Trish
I'm a conservationist, prior military, atheist, pro-choice/abortion shouldn't be the primary option, moderate, unaffiliated to any political party, individual.
Huh... this describes me to a "T".
Well, it'd be scary were I the only, in the words of a friend, 'rabid moderate' out there. |
...no one has ever found a 4.5 billion year old stone artifact (at the right geological stratum) with the words "Made by God."
No Sense of Obligation by Matt Young
"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith. I consider the capacity for it terrifying and vile!"
Mother Night by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
They (Women Marines) don't have a nickname, and they don't need one. They get their basic training in a Marine atmosphere, at a Marine Post. They inherit the traditions of the Marines. They are Marines.
LtGen Thomas Holcomb, USMC
Commandant of the Marine Corps, 1943
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 10:44:53 [Permalink]
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Kil
Maybe I shouldn't have used the phrase "you guys". If the word doesn't fit you, I appologize. And I'll extend that to any true centrist if I erronously applied it. I suspect that's not many.
If the word "liberal" is anything like a slur it is because liberalism is a discredited political philosophy, not because of any
widespread mischaracterization of what liberalism is.
Look at your WIKIPEDIA quotation,"Someone in favor of vast and needless government intrusion into peoples' lives". That is precisely
what the liberal approach to governance was. If there is any social or economic problem there must be a government program to "solve" it. Consider Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" programs as an example.Government flogged taxpayers for Trillions (yes,trillions, not mere millions or even billions).Even at it's height liberals were
crying that we weren't spending enough.Tell me these "Great Society" programs were not redistribution programs? Supposedly from the "rich" but the spending grew so much that "rich" kept inching downward so that the middle class were included in the definition.
I don't know your age (not asking) but surely your memory goes back to the 90s. when Newt Gingrich and the conservative Republicans rolled back Great Society welfare.Liberal politicians like Teddy Kennedy were emoting, in every forum, that children would starve,thousands of people would become homeless, etc. It didn't happen of course. How were we wrong to characterize such politicans as "bleeding heart"? They weren't concerned with whether their programs did good or harm; they wanted to feel good about their own compassion. No amount of the taxpayers' labor was too large to keep them feeling good.
How are we wrong to characterize politicians whose first and only
response to every social/econonic problem is a government program
as "knee jerk" liberals?
If "liberal" is a slur, the public's experience with liberal rule made it that way.When a liberal politician tries to hide behind another label how are we wrong to point out to point out that he is, in his governmental proposals or practices,liberal?
If there are still, as WIKIPEDIA claims, many Democrats "who are centrist or could be considered right wing" they'd better start taking back their party.I believe that is Zell Miller's thesis.
Incidently, "certainty makes you ridiculous" only if you're wrong.vrwc
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 11:08:04 [Permalink]
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| and hes not even joking. (shudders) |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 11:29:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by vrwc
I don't know your age (not asking) but surely your memory goes back to the 90s. when Newt Gingrich and the conservative Republicans rolled back Great Society welfare.Liberal politicians like Teddy Kennedy were emoting, in every forum, that children would starve,thousands of people would become homeless, etc. It didn't happen of course. How were we wrong to characterize such politicans as "bleeding heart"? They weren't concerned with whether their programs did good or harm; they wanted to feel good about their own compassion. No amount of the taxpayers' labor was too large to keep them feeling good.
While I'm not Kil, I just thought I had to address some of these. I'll give you some background on myself. I've seen the political beast from the inside of campaigns change over the years. (First campaign I worked was for Dan Walker (D-IL) in 1972 at the tender age of 5.) It's turned into a mudslinging fest of pain for the candidates where things they have done which may have been labeled liberal are being painted as the norm vs the exception. Once slung, it has been made difficult by the intellectually lazy electorate to shake. Anymore, local races are about name recognition instead of issues.
Gingrich didn't get his whole plan implemented. Even back then the party politic knew they had to negotiate the best deal they could out of the opposition. It was less severe than the Gingrich plan. Gingrich and the ultraconservatives were looking at dismantling Welfare, not reforming it.
quote:
How are we wrong to characterize politicians whose first and only
response to every social/econonic problem is a government program
as "knee jerk" liberals?
Because we've seen this lable applied to politicians where it doesn't apply. Very few politicians in Washington are pushing for new governmental programs and agencies as a first and foremost response to programs.
quote:
If "liberal" is a slur, the public's experience with liberal rule made it that way.When a liberal politician tries to hide behind another label how are we wrong to point out to point out that he is, in his governmental proposals or practices,liberal?
Actually, no. The self defined conservatives have demonized liberal programs. Just like the self defined liberals have done to conservatives. This is the new way of getting what you want done. Demonize your opponent and try to convince people that you are right through repetion and hope the voting public never investigates your claims.
quote:
If there are still, as WIKIPEDIA claims, many Democrats "who are centrist or could be considered right wing" they'd better start taking back their party.I believe that is Zell Miller's thesis.
Incidently, "certainty makes you ridiculous" only if you're wrong.vrwc
Zell "challenge Chris Matthews to a duel" Miller is a far-right wingnut. Has been for years. Democrat in name only. Just like John McCain has been characterized by the Republicans. The centrists have let the ultraliberals into places of power, but the centrists are beginning to moderate the messages. The marginalization of Howard Dean as chair of the Democratic party should be evidence that the centrists are gaining power. Even Hillary Clinton is moving towards the center to get the Presidential nominee nod. (Bad idea if they actually put her up for the job.)
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Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 14:37:34 [Permalink]
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Dave W
From the beginning my purpose has been to keep this (roughly) 50 year old political event fom becoming an device to evade discussing current issues.I haven't addressed the pro McCarthy side in detail because--for this purpose--it suffices to establish that there are two sides.
If I take your point correctly this is "political hypocrisy" because I attribute this tactic only to the political left.Let's examine it. I am very willing to examine instances where you believe conservatives are doing the same.Kil raised an instance he believes is an example and we're doing precisely that. vrwc |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 14:41:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
vrwc:
Kil
Maybe I shouldn't have used the phrase "you guys". If the word doesn't fit you, I appologize. And I'll extend that to any true centrist if I erronously applied it. I suspect that's not many.
Way to miss the point. Again, your contention by implication was that only the left engages is slurs to shortcut real political debate. And, once again I say baloney…
quote:
If the word "liberal" is anything like a slur it is because liberalism is a discredited political philosophy, not because of any
widespread mischaracterization of what liberalism is.
The word “liberal” became a slur exactly because of the way conservatives mischaracterized what liberalism is. It was that over generalized hyperbolic language that sidesteps real discourse in favor of a quick knockout that you seem to only have a problem with (or are even able to recognize) when it is directed at conservatives as per your complaint about the use of the word “McCarthyism.”
quote:
Look at your WIKIPEDIA quotation,"Someone in favor of vast and needless government intrusion into peoples' lives". That is precisely what the liberal approach to governance was.
That is the conservative definition anyway. But
okay then, by that definition conservatives are also liberals. It is they who want to limit or do away with a womans right to choose. It is they who care about who can get married. It is they would deny a persons right to die. The list is endless. I see these things as “…in favor of a vast and needless intrusion into peoples lives.” Bottom line is, don't make me laugh. If you really think you can define liberalism with a cliché, well, perhaps we really can't have a dialog…
quote:
If there is any social or economic problem there must be a government program to "solve" it. Consider Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" programs as an example.Government flogged taxpayers for Trillions (yes,trillions, not mere millions or even billions).Even at it's height liberals were
crying that we weren't spending enough.Tell me these "Great Society" programs were not redistribution programs? Supposedly from the "rich" but the spending grew so much that "rich" kept inching downward so that the middle class were included in the definition.
And yet, with all of their spending, the democrats have never produced the kind of deficit spending that has become the hallmark of the republican approach. The liberals warned that under republican administrations and with both houses with a republican majority the rich would get richer and the poor would get poorer and the middleclass would disappear. And that is exactly what is happening. I call that "don't tax and spend more conservativism." But of course, a one-sentence summary of conservative economic policy just might be seen by conservatives as being overly simplistic and unfair.
quote:
I don't know your age (not asking) but surely your memory goes back to the 90s. when Newt Gingrich and the conservative Republicans rolled back Great Society welfare.Liberal politicians like Teddy Kennedy were emoting, in every forum, that children would starve,thousands of p |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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vrwc
New Member
47 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2005 : 15:28:00 [Permalink]
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ronnywhite and Trish
I agree that Trish may have some points to explore. Her interests appear to be stem cell research and environmental issues. I'm new here. Is the usual practice to set up a seperate heading to address such distinct issues? She's certainly justified to want issues like this explored. What's the best way?
Trish, I have no doubts the Bush administration may not be addressing these issues in the way you'd like, but I haven't seen that legitimate spokesmen for these issues are repressed. Didn't the Dems put up one as their presidential candidate in 04? He certainly didn't suffer from a lack of fora (Isn't it "fora" not "forums". I may be the ungrammatical one here) in which to make his case to the American people.Kerry certainly doesn't suffer from a lack of financial rescources, either. I haven't seen him or his wealthy wife put sizeable investments into this research. Makes me wonder if it's all that promising an area of research.
Incidently, HUAC was a House subcommittee. I don't believe McCarthy was ever a member; he was in the Senate at the time. vrwc |
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