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ASR
Skeptic Friend
69 Posts |
 Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:42:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
How do you know they don't?
Don't you think we would have seen it by now? You accept evolution based upon logic, logically ants do not have emotion. |
From the moon they looked down to see if we measured up |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:42:32 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ASR
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Originally posted by beskeptigal
quote:
Originally posted by ASR
If philosophy is completely unrelated to the brain and evolution then why can't ants philosophy?
How do you know they can't?
Philosophy is a noun.
Philosophize is the verb.
Because in their billions of years in existence they have never done anything creative. Creative = Philosophy. Thanks for fixing my typo.
Erm, in their millions of years they have not done anything creative. But not true, alas. I refer again to the leaf-cutter ants. These cut bits of leaf and take them back to the nest, there, they are not eaten but are mulched and given to a growing fungus that is the colony's food sorce. That is certainly a form of creativity.
Further creativity can be seen in soldier ants, that have no perminant nest. When they stop their march for the night, the workers hook their legs together creating a temporary but snug shelter. They will do the same when the colony needs to cross a small stream, creating a bridge
Further creativity can be found in mound-building termites. These have carefully constructed venelation ducts that are placed in such a position as to catch the prevailing winds and cool the colony. If conditions change, the termites change the ducts.
I think that one should be very careful when disussing creativity in animal behavior. It shows up in some very odd places and rather strange forms.
Edited to add: all of this is, of course, evolved behavior, but it had to begin sometime, and then, it was brand new. Who is to say that similar can not happen again? And, perhaps, is happening right now?
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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| Edited by - filthy on 10/12/2005 12:47:08 |
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ASR
Skeptic Friend
69 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:51:25 [Permalink]
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| My slippers...they're unnecessary. Why don't they do anything unnecessary? |
From the moon they looked down to see if we measured up |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:52:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ASR
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
ASR, you ask why ants don't ants have creative thought.
I ask, define creativity.
The ability to conceive things that do not have a physical property. Money, democracy, God.
And who says they don't? How can you know what goes in an ant's mind (if there is such thing as an ant mind, at all)? And why is creativity limited to non-physical things? Is art not creative? It is pretty physical, too. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 12:55:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ASR
My slippers...they're unnecessary. Why don't they do anything unnecessary?
No, they aren't unnecessary. You may think they are, now, but if you wear slippers today, it is because primitive men realized that, if they protected their feet from the environment, their feet would become more functional and/or hurt less. This bit of knowledge they passed to their children and so forth and today you're wearing slippers. Pretty mundane. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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| Edited by - Siberia on 10/12/2005 12:56:59 |
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ASR
Skeptic Friend
69 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 13:02:12 [Permalink]
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| So once upon a time an ant mulched some leaves and left it for consumption later. When he returned he found more food. It did not ask why there was more food, just knew that putting food there made more food. New ants followed him to get leaves, and followed his example. They did not ask why, this was just the way things were done, and so it continued to today. |
From the moon they looked down to see if we measured up |
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ASR
Skeptic Friend
69 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 13:03:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by ASR
My slippers...they're unnecessary. Why don't they do anything unnecessary?
No, they aren't unnecessary. You may think they are, now, but if you wear slippers today, it is because primitive men realized that, if they protected their feet from the environment, their feet would become more functional and/or hurt less. This bit of knowledge they passed to their children and so forth and today you're wearing slippers. Pretty mundane.
OK score one for science...logic, call it what you will. |
From the moon they looked down to see if we measured up |
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ASR
Skeptic Friend
69 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 13:06:09 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
quote:
Originally posted by ASR
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
ASR, you ask why ants don't ants have creative thought.
I ask, define creativity.
The ability to conceive things that do not have a physical property. Money, democracy, God.
And who says they don't? How can you know what goes in an ant's mind (if there is such thing as an ant mind, at all)? And why is creativity limited to non-physical things? Is art not creative? It is pretty physical, too.
Art is the mix of science and philosophy if you read what I wrote on my website. It is the mix of something physical, as you said, and the mix of something philosophical, (beauty) who can define beauty? That's what makes it the opposite of science, science is all things that can be defined. |
From the moon they looked down to see if we measured up |
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ASR
Skeptic Friend
69 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 13:13:51 [Permalink]
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| all things that can be defined with yes or no i should say. |
From the moon they looked down to see if we measured up |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 13:16:58 [Permalink]
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Stating that evolution must have created it is a logical conundrum, given that it is not necessary for survival of the fittest. It has created murder, greed, despair,...all things that disrupt the natural equilibrium of evolution. Emotions put a kink in the works.
Nonsense! Do you really believe that our ability to to have emotions has not help mankind to survive and flourish.
Murder greed.. etc disurpt the natural equlibrium of evolution - bullshit! Please define the 'natural equilibrium of evolution'.
Dogs show love very convincingly, they also are very loyal, and have a great ability to communicate. Cats on the other hand (sorry cat lovers) don't. This is because dogs evolved this behaviour in a pack environment.
People just have bigger brains and our evolved behaviours are more intricate.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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ASR
Skeptic Friend
69 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 13:20:53 [Permalink]
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| Oh I recall how they mocked Freud... |
From the moon they looked down to see if we measured up |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 13:24:06 [Permalink]
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| You aren't Freud. |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 13:34:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ASR
quote:
Originally posted by Valiant Dancer
quote:
Originally posted by ASR
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
ASR, you ask why ants don't ants have creative thought.
I ask, define creativity.
The ability to conceive things that do not have a physical property. Money, democracy, God.
And since we lack any mechanism by which to communicate these very complex concepts in a two way manner with these beings, how do you know the animals don't possess these things?
"The humans said they were more advanced than dolphins because they had the atomic bomb and New York. The dolphins claimed they were more advanced than humans and listed the same items." -- Paraphrased Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
You all argue with me that I have no evidence to support my claims, yet turn around and make philosophical arguments in the same manner to refute. Make up your mind.
You have made the claim that ants lack philosophy. We are pointing out that you have no evidence for it. You have only given us philosophical arguements to refute as you have traveled far afield of any scientific arguement concerning evolution. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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ASR
Skeptic Friend
69 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 13:34:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
quote:
Stating that evolution must have created it is a logical conundrum, given that it is not necessary for survival of the fittest. It has created murder, greed, despair,...all things that disrupt the natural equilibrium of evolution. Emotions put a kink in the works.
Nonsense! Do you really believe that our ability to to have emotions has not help mankind to survive and flourish.
Murder greed.. etc disurpt the natural equlibrium of evolution - bullshit! Please define the 'natural equilibrium of evolution'.
Dogs show love very convincingly, they also are very loyal, and have a great ability to communicate. Cats on the other hand (sorry cat lovers) don't. This is because dogs evolved this behaviour in a pack environment.
People just have bigger brains and our evolved behaviours are more intricate.
War. Every species on the planet engages in killing to ensure survival of the species. We are one species that has civil wars, illogical wars. Nothing to gain from it, inspired by emotions. We are self destructive. This has nothing to do with survival of the fittest, it ruins a species chance for survival thus opposing the law of evolution's fittest. As for dogs, scientists have recently proven that animals do have emotions. As for cats, mine exhibited pride when catching a bird, shame when losing a rabbit, anger towards my sister when she got dogs, and purred whenever I was at hand. |
From the moon they looked down to see if we measured up |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 10/12/2005 : 13:36:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ASR
quote:
How do you know they don't?
Don't you think we would have seen it by now? You accept evolution based upon logic, logically ants do not have emotion.
As philosophy is really complex and the lifespan of ants is incredibly breif, how do you know you haven't seen it?
I accept evolution based on logic and empirical evidence.
Ants not having emotion is conjecture, not logic. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
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