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ar
New Member
30 Posts |
 Posted - 10/31/2005 : 14:48:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
quote:
"A tree" pre-supposes evolution.
"A person" pre-supposes evolution.
"A Loris" pre-supposes evolution.
"A hurricane" contains no information; like sand dunes, it is an illusion of information based on complex physical interactions.
No this is not correct.
An acorn grows into a tree. The atoms and molecules from the environment are arranged in an extremely orderly manner to form an oak tree. It has nothing to do with evolution. Same thing with the animals - but they do not come from acorns.
AR you said:
quote:
please give me an example of nature creating information or order from energy
A Hurricane is clearly a highly ordered system. It is an extremely oredered and efficient heat engine. Is the request for 'order from disorder' no longer one of the items to address?
So if I put all the constituants of an oak tree into a glass jar and shine sunlight into it, an oak tree will form? Obviously not. My question is - how did the information (genetic, in this case) originate? It has everything to do with evolution.
A hurricane is ordered randomness, much like a fractal. That is an aspect of chaos theory, and that is deeper than I want to go right now, as it is not necessary to resolve my original question.
But thank you for pointing out an insufficiency in my post. I failed to properly define order. Order, as I am thinking of it, must contain information, and yes, made my inclusion of "information" on "the list" was redundant.
Dr Mabuse:
quote:
How do you define order?
How do you define information?
How do you define information exchange?
Those are excellent questions. I will need to think on this, but for now, let me offer this view.
Information is lack of randomness, and lack of ordered randomness (i.e. hurricane, sand dunes and other non-informational physical phenomena).
What then is randomness?
I'm not going to even hazard a definition at this point, beyond saying:
Language contains information (non-randomness). At some point in history, between there being nothing and there being language, information had to "appear." How did it originate?
A general note about the modification of already-existing information (i.e. that in a splitting cell): The ability to modify existing information does not address the problem. Information can modify itself, as can be readily seen all around us - the problem is, where did it come from in the first place?
Edit: clarification of paragraph RE language |
| Edited by - ar on 10/31/2005 14:52:47 |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 15:04:06 [Permalink]
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AR you said
quote:
So if I put all the constituants of an oak tree into a glass jar and shine sunlight into it, an oak tree will form? Obviously not. My question is - how did the information (genetic, in this case) originate? It has everything to do with evolution.
This may have everything to do with evolution, but it has nothing to do with your original question, which was.
quote:
In the meantime, for those who have said the argument does not apply because earth is not a closed system, please give me an example of nature creating information or order from energy. And no, I am not satisfied by "snowflakes" as the information already existed in the electronic structure of the atoms forming the crystals.
You asked a question and I answered it. Of course my original answer does not address your next question - I am not psychic, we also a skeptical of psychics.
Do you agree that an acorn growing into an Oak tree is a demonstration of a decrease in the local entropy? (hint - the answer is yes)
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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furshur
SFN Regular
USA
1536 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 15:11:56 [Permalink]
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AR you said:
quote:
A hurricane is ordered randomness
Ordered randomness? Come on. You cannot make up definitions that go against the convention and then use these pseudo definitions to exclude ideas that you disagree with.
A hurricane is an extremely organized storm system. Waving your hands and making up oxymoron definitions does not change that.
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If I knew then what I know now then I would know more now than I know. |
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ar
New Member
30 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 15:13:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
AR you said
quote:
So if I put all the constituants of an oak tree into a glass jar and shine sunlight into it, an oak tree will form? Obviously not. My question is - how did the information (genetic, in this case) originate? It has everything to do with evolution.
This may have everything to do with evolution, but it has nothing to do with your original question, which was.
quote:
In the meantime, for those who have said the argument does not apply because earth is not a closed system, please give me an example of nature creating information or order from energy. And no, I am not satisfied by "snowflakes" as the information already existed in the electronic structure of the atoms forming the crystals.
You asked a question and I answered it. Of course my original answer does not address your next question - I am not psychic, we also a skeptical of psychics.
Do you agree that an acorn growing into an Oak tree is a demonstration of a decrease in the local entropy? (hint - the answer is yes)
My original question was, how was order and information created. Your answer was a list of the manifestation of existing information.
quote:
Do you agree that an acorn growing into an Oak tree is a demonstration of a decrease in the local entropy? (hint - the answer is yes)
That is irrelevant. Yes, manifestation of existing information (genetic, atomic, etc) does require use of energy. I'm not, and never was, asking about manifestation of existing information. |
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ar
New Member
30 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 15:16:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by furshur
AR you said:
quote:
A hurricane is ordered randomness
Ordered randomness? Come on. You cannot make up definitions that go against the convention and then use these pseudo definitions to exclude ideas that you disagree with.
A hurricane is an extremely organized storm system. Waving your hands and making up oxymoron definitions does not change that.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=chaos+theory+%22ordered+randomness%22
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 15:17:48 [Permalink]
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| It may well be so that I don't understand the definitions of information and randomness and other words, but surely hurricanes and sanddunes contain information of some sort? |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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ar
New Member
30 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 15:35:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Maverick
It may well be so that I don't understand the definitions of information and randomness and other words, but surely hurricanes and sanddunes contain information of some sort?
It is a very fuzzy, hair-splitting topic.
But if you think about it, how could they? Think of sand dunes - the interactions of millions of sand particles interacting with air currents - air currents affected by butterflies flapping their wings hundreds of miles away, as the typical example goes. The mechanisms governing the formation of sand dunes and hurricanes are arbitrarily small and immesurable, to the point where quantum mechanics takes over. Once Q.M. - a theory of probability - nothing is determinate.
And that is why weather forecasts are so bad. :)
Order? Yes. Random Order. Apparent order due to a random cause. |
| Edited by - ar on 10/31/2005 15:36:15 |
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Maverick
Skeptic Friend
Sweden
385 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 15:54:30 [Permalink]
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| If they contain no information, how then can they interact with their surroundings, and how can they be observed? The interaction between the air and the sand would mean an exchange of information, wouldn't it? The molecules in the air move the sand and therefore also are affected themselves. |
"Life is but a momentary glimpse of the wonder of this astonishing universe, and it is sad to see so many dreaming it away on spiritual fantasy." -- Carl Sagan |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9688 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 16:06:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ar
Dr Mabuse:
quote:
How do you define order?
How do you define information?
How do you define information exchange?
Those are excellent questions. I will need to think on this, but for now, let me offer this view.
Information is lack of randomness, and lack of ordered randomness (i.e. hurricane, sand dunes and other non-informational physical phenomena).
Lack of randomness is a point of view.
Information is data that we (or a machine) can interpret as message or instructions. That's why I say it's an abstract property. It has all to do with context.
quote:
Language contains information (non-randomness).
Yes, but only for someone who understands it. Where there is a common consensus about how the language should be interpreted.
quote:
At some point in history, between there being nothing and there being language, information had to "appear." How did it originate?
Define language...
Verbal communication? sign-language communication? Body language? Scent?
It's a concept defined by mutual understanding of the data (syllables) exchanged.
quote:
A general note about the modification of already-existing information (i.e. that in a splitting cell): The ability to modify existing information does not address the problem. Information can modify itself, as can be readily seen all around us - the problem is, where did it come from in the first place?
How RNA appeared is current abiogenesis research.
Is RNA information? The answer is no. RNA contains information in the sense that molecular machines produces proteins from the RNA strands.
Assemblage of RNA and DNA can be random, and yet, as soon as RNA is translated into proteins, information value has been assigned to it by us.
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Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 16:08:59 [Permalink]
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I think what ar wants to know is how complex living organisms evolved from less-complex organisms. Organisms evolve because slight changes to their genetic code can be preserved if the change is beneficial. Genetic mutation is random, but natural selection means that (mostly) beneficial traits get passed on from one generation to the to next. That part of the process is not random and is what produces complex organisms. Evolution acts on sort of a ratcheting principle where it keeps the good, discards the bad, and continually adds to the genetic code to build complexity over time.
Note that any appearance of organisms "progressing toward a goal" or "building toward higher forms of life" stems entirely from human perception. Evolution can also strip away unneeded traits, reducing an organism's "complexity." Note that I'm using complexity in a very colloquial fashion for your benefit. Scientists don't actually measure such a thing as "complexity," nor is there any "law of conservation of information" that applies to DNA or genetics. These are strictly creationist inventions.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/31/2005 16:14:24 |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 16:27:34 [Permalink]
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010001001010101100010101
is information.
To a non-binary-reading person, it's randomness. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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ar
New Member
30 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 16:37:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Lack of randomness is a point of view.
Information is data that we (or a machine) can interpret as message or instructions. That's why I say it's an abstract property. It has all to do with context.
I think I understand what you are saying, correct me if I am wrong
Information does not actually exist aside from translation by "something." Or - it is defined by it's context. And what is it's context? It's an "agreed upon" translation, or protocal? Agreed upon by humans, by cellular mechanics, etc.
Now - cognizant that I may still be too fuzzy on these concepts to do so with confidence, I'm going to disagree.
I guess the crux of the issue is - can information be recognized as such out of it's context? Can information exist without context?
I think it can.
Say a future civilization - not human - let's say not even a 3-dimensional creature, but something far beyond our ability to even comprehend - encountered a present day book. Without any knowledge of original context, would this intelligence be able to recognize it as the product of non-random process? A process beyond nature?
It seems to me that information can stand on it's own - although translation requires context. |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 16:38:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ar
...please give me an example of nature creating information or order from energy.
As you can probably tell, people have a hard time understanding exactly what you mean. Your statement could mean that you want us to show you abiogenesis (irrelevant to evolution as you've already stated). Copying genetic information has been mentioned (more info can be created in an energy-dependent process), but that was obviously not what you wanted. What do you want? Be more specific. |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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ar
New Member
30 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 16:39:57 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
010001001010101100010101
is information.
To a non-binary-reading person, it's randomness.
Considering you only have 3 or so bytes of it, yes, it may be random or it may be information. It is ambiguous.
BUT - give me enough binary - say, a typical windows exe, and I could find enough pattern and repetition in it to convince myself it is NOT random, even if I cannot translate it.
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2005 : 16:47:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ar
you only have 3 or so bytes of it, yes, it may be random or it may be information. It is ambiguous.
BUT - give me enough binary - say, a typical windows exe, and I could find enough pattern and repetition in it to convince myself it is NOT random, even if I cannot translate it.
Patterns arise in nature all the time. Get this fallicy out of your head that everything in nature is "random" in the sense of jumbled and that only intelligent agents can produce order. Natural processes can and do produce ordered systems.
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
| Edited by - H. Humbert on 10/31/2005 16:52:01 |
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