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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
 Posted - 11/07/2001 : 05:42:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
No, she's bought into a load of crap that she hasn't bothered to substantiate. Your defense of her after her behavior here tells me a little more about you as well.
Curses! I've been found out. Captured and judged. I'll skitter back to the shadows now.
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 05:48:03 [Permalink]
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Don't skitter. I said a little, I didn't say you lived in a cave with horns like Chomsky.
quote:
quote:
No, she's bought into a load of crap that she hasn't bothered to substantiate. Your defense of her after her behavior here tells me a little more about you as well.
Curses! I've been found out. Captured and judged. I'll skitter back to the shadows now.
My kids still love me.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 05:53:54 [Permalink]
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quote:
It was more than the word demonized, Garrette. You, and others have this need to divide the world up into Bush's fantasy, where the U.S. is "good" and it has its "good" friends, and "bad" enemies. The war against "Good" and "Evil." If anyone criticizes what the "Good" people do, then they're calling the "Good" ones "Evil" and the "Evil" ones "Good."
So, let's examine this comment. Would anyone care to challenge the statement that Osama bin Laden is evil? Let's see a show of hands - I call bin Laden evil. If we can all agree that statement is true, then criticism and concerns about our approach to dealing with that evil is quite legitimate and deserves a hearing. However, if bin Laden is viewed by the linguistics experts as the legitimate agent of "blowback", a creation of US foreign policy who is merely giving us what we deserve for our meddlesome and bad intentions (a "freedom fighter", if you will), then I want nothing further to do with this conversation. If one cannot define "evil" and give it a face, then one can easily justify every atrocity and mass murder by examining "root causes" and finding some "perspective" that allows that evil to exist. If you can't see that what bin Laden and his agents did is evil, then I charge that you are morally suspect.
It's all about language and "perspective", to the lingustics experts like Chomsky. Simple-minded people have condemned the genocidal atrocities of Hitler as the epitome of pure evil, but having an intellectual "perspective" about their actions helps many to justify it. (Perhaps the Germans really had a "good" reason to do what they did. How can we rightly judge the actions of others, who may have been forced into their course of action because of the meddlesome United States or Britain?).
Well, we damn well better be ready to "judge" or civilization is doomed.
It's in your court, Gorgo. Prove to me that your views and those of your beloved hero are not morally degenerate. Define what you believe "morality" to be to us on the SFN; you have been avoiding that part of the argument like the plague.
I feel more and more like I'm arguing with a young earth creationist. However, since I have been accused (again) of bringing nothing substantial to the table, I shall go off and prepare more damning evidence.
And, no, I'm not a believer in homoepathy. Thank you for resorting to the theatre of the absurd in your insults.
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 05:56:30 [Permalink]
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Am I correct, Gorgo (and Gandalf), in assuming that we agree on the following?
1. Tha the US is not perfect
2. That the US has, in fact, done some very bad things.
3. That among these things are over a century's worth of dealing with Central America.
4. That regardless of past rights or wrongs, it is imperative from both a moral/ethical stance and a political stance in regard to effectiveness to constantly review US policies.
5. That despite any noble or ignoble intentions of current policies, they must be viewed in regard to their efficacy.
I think we do agree on these. I think the disagreements come in deciding what stands up to the moral/ethical and political reviews. You find us too lenient in our review of the US. We find you too harsh.
We also disagree on who best addresses these issues. You say Chomsky does so admirably. We say Chomsky uses these issues as a front for a personal agenda of tearing down all things American.
There's more, I'm sure, but I'm tapped out.
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 06:14:14 [Permalink]
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Would you write the same post if we were talking about Germany, or Iraq (0bviously changing "Central America" to a more appropriate area)
quote:
Am I correct, Gorgo (and Gandalf), in assuming that we agree on the following?
1. Tha the US is not perfect
2. That the US has, in fact, done some very bad things.
3. That among these things are over a century's worth of dealing with Central America.
4. That regardless of past rights or wrongs, it is imperative from both a moral/ethical stance and a political stance in regard to effectiveness to constantly review US policies.
5. That despite any noble or ignoble intentions of current policies, they must be viewed in regard to their efficacy.
I think we do agree on these. I think the disagreements come in deciding what stands up to the moral/ethical and political reviews. You find us too lenient in our review of the US. We find you too harsh.
We also disagree on who best addresses these issues. You say Chomsky does so admirably. We say Chomsky uses these issues as a front for a personal agenda of tearing down all things American.
There's more, I'm sure, but I'm tapped out.
My kids still love me.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 06:50:19 [Permalink]
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What makes you think I wouldn't? It is, after all, a call for critical analysis.
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 07:05:05 [Permalink]
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Sorry. Brains for mush. Too stupid to respond. Besides, if I asked you to examine your thinking, it would deter the war effort.
"United We Stand" "God Bless America" "Brush Three Times a Day"
quote:
So, let's examine this comment.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 07:07:11 [Permalink]
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Go ahead. Show me that the execution of millions of Jews and others is a "mistake" in policy that has to be examined for its efficacy.
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What makes you think I wouldn't? It is, after all, a call for critical analysis.
My kids still love me.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 07:12:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Go ahead. Show me that the execution of millions of Jews and others is a "mistake" in policy that has to be examined for its efficacy.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What makes you think I wouldn't? It is, after all, a call for critical analysis.
My kids still love me.
This is totally out of left field. You've obviously misunderstood something of mine. Or maybe I've totally miscommunicated.
Help, anyone? Have I even remotely suggested this?
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 07:23:11 [Permalink]
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You said that policies have to be reviewed for their efficacy. Evidently I misunderstood your post.
The U.S. makes "mistakes" because gosh, they try to do good, but they got caught up with some bad people trying to fight the Anti-Christ in one form or another. Or they're just big and clumsy and get into trouble by trying to help people that just can't be helped. Or, there is "collateral" damage in the war against today's Anti-Christ. Right?
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 07:33:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
2. That the US has, in fact, done some very bad things.
This is from my list, which I grant is not thought out to the nth degree and could be improved.
Perhaps I should add that the US still remains capable of doing very bad things.
I'm simply saying that WWII (and even the atomic bomb drops) does not qualify as a very bad thing, nor does our response now in Afghanistan. You apparently believe otherwise.
I have also said in other threads that while I support the current military response I hope it is being accompanied by the sort of policy review you advocate. We need both; not just one of them.
My kids still love me. |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 07:48:30 [Permalink]
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The U.S. is doing very destructive things which, in the long run are not very efficacious if one desires some reasonable kind of life for the people of the U.S. and the people of the world. So is every other country. The U.S. claims to be a leader and a promoter of certain values. They do not promote those values.
If it can be argued that Hiroshima was a good thing, and I think it cannot, but even if it can, there is very little argument that Nagasaki was a good thing. Even if that can be argued, the subsequent attacks were just amazingly brutal.
Does that kind of activity promote peace, democracy and freedom? I don't think so.
quote:
quote:
2. That the US has, in fact, done some very bad things.
This is from my list, which I grant is not thought out to the nth degree and could be improved.
Perhaps I should add that the US still remains capable of doing very bad things.
I'm simply saying that WWII (and even the atomic bomb drops) does not qualify as a very bad thing, nor does our response now in Afghanistan. You apparently believe otherwise.
I have also said in other threads that while I support the current military response I hope it is being accompanied by the sort of policy review you advocate. We need both; not just one of them.
My kids still love me.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 12:48:56 [Permalink]
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Gorgo quote:
I think that there's a Hitchens vs Chomsky thing at the Zmag.org site. I haven't read it yet.
What I advocate is a free press.
What I advocate is that the U.S. begin to promote democracy in the world instead of terror.
If we start on those two things, we'll have gone a long way.
Yes, thanks, there are some of their exchanges at 'Zmag.org.'
Well rejoice, my brother, for we do have a "free press," and if only by example, the US does promote democracy. So then, it becomes a question of degree, then?
Understand, that my grievance with you critics, is not, that there are not valid criticisms of the US or western civilization, that need to be addressed. Its your seeming lack of a sense of ti-ti-timing. The attack of 911, occured less than eight weeks ago! Its fires are still smoking, many of our dead have yet to be buried. And you are reaching back half a century to WWII, to criticize the actions of the US!?! To my mind, this is not the appropriate time for dissent. This act of war, has been visited upon US, and we must face it with the leadership, the forces, and the will of the people, that is present as it is. You are either part of the effort, or you are not. Our enemy, as he has presented himself, is not one of compromise or reasoned negotiations, but is intent upon bringing the world of Islam to his aid in destroying western life as we know it, including our democratic institutions and its 'free press.' As Hitchens says, "The very first step that we must take, therefore, is the acquisition of enough self-respect and self-confidence to say that we have met an enemy and that he is not us, but someone else. Someone with whom coexistence is, fortunately I think, not possible. (I say "fortunately" because I am also convinced that such coexistence is not desirable)."
The quote is from Of Sin, the Left & Islamic Fascism, interesting reading.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire
Edited by - NubiWan on 11/07/2001 13:06:23 |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 12:53:51 [Permalink]
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Well, loose my computer for two days and what happened to this thread?
Gorgo:
quote:
No. Of course you're right and I just said as much. What I am saying is that, for instance, Trish's attitude is, and forgive me Trish if it seems as though I'm slamming you, that is not my intention, and I'm not quoting you, I'm paraphrasing - I was in the fucking Marines for five years, so Chomsky is wrong. This is not skeptical thought it is thought born of an emotional attachment. Just because it is an emotional attachment doesn't make the statement wrong, it just makes it suspect. I'm not telling people not to be angry, I'm just saying that emotional attachments can cloud judgment and reason.
No slam understood. Having been in the military does color my thinking as much as your past or any person's past affects their thinking habits. What I don't like is the way friends of my were treated by Shirley McClain - someone brought her up with a friend who had a personal experience with her brand of treatment of US troops in Vietnam (?). I'm not sure where this happened or how - this was the only time he ever talked about his experiences in Vietnam with me - I don't remember much of what he said because for him it was very confused as he told it. I never asked him about it again - it wasn't my place to do so. All I can say is I wouldn't want to be carrying around the memories he does. (So forgive my very poor recollection of what happened - I'm sure someone else can answer these questions if they choose.) I also dislike being called a terrorist, murderer, ad nauseum by association. I think I pointed this out in an earlier post in this thread.
quote:
Trish, I think maybe I've confused you. It's Ramsey Clark that's held the trials not Chomsky. If you do a search you can find info on the net. If not, I'll try to find it for you if you're interested.
Thanks I just got my computer back and running - I'll have to look into it.
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I defy anyone to find in any of Chomsky's writings where he promises "Utopia."
I was refering to his idealistic stance. Rhetoric on my part.
SJ:
quote:
This forum contains impressively mind-numbing displays of psychic resistance. Maybe I just came in at the wrong time over the weekend, because much of today's discourse is reasoned and civil. However, some weekend contributors let loose their vengeful invective far too often to be taken seriously as thoughtful people. Some of you feeling a little insecure about your intellectual strengths?
The psychic resistance to analysis of our military and foreign policies from the perspective of those who feel the bullets and bombs is a harbinger of the totalitarianism several of you seem to want America to adopt. As the wise elder Rueben Snake said, if we don't get off this path, we will surely reach where we are headed. I want off. Auf Wiedersehen.
One long ad hominem. I'm not into them. You attempt to couch your offensive views of others who do not fall in line with you in pretty words. Well, dear, I don't tend to take people like you very seriously either. I will tell this to |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2001 : 12:56:16 [Permalink]
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You know, I wish I was a lawyer right now. I could get all my clients off by saying, "You know, it's bad timing to find Americans guilty of crimes. UNITED WE STAND!"
It was a criminal act to kill thousands of people in NY and D.C. It is a criminal act to attack the people of Afghanistan, and risk thousands, maybe millions of lives. This is not an act of courage, but one of cowardice. It's never bad timing to show cowardice and criminal behavior for what it is.
quote:
Yes, thanks, there are some of their exchanges at 'Zmag.org.'
Well rejoice, my brother, for we do have a "free press," and if only by example, the US does promote democracy. So then, it becomes a question of degree, then?
Understand, that my grievance with you critics, is not, that there are not valid criticisms of the US or western civilization, that need to be addressed. Its your seeming lack of a sense of ti-ti-timing. The attack of 911, occured less than eight weeks ago! Its fires are still smoking, many of our dead have yet to be buried. And you are reaching back half a century to WWII, to criticize the actions of the US!?! To my mind, this is not the appropriate time for dissent. This act of war, has been visited upon US, and we must face it with the leadership, the forces, and the will of the people, that is present as it is. You are either part of the effort, or you are not. Our enemy, as he has presented himself, is not one of compromise or reasoned negotiations, but is intent upon bringing the world of Islam to his aid in destroying western life as we know it, including our democratic institutions and its 'free press.' As Hitchens says, "The very first step that we must take, therefore, is the acquisition of enough self-respect and self-confidence to say that we have met an enemy and that he is not us, but someone else. Someone with whom coexistence is, fortunately I think, not possible. (I say "fortunately" because I am also convinced that such coexistence is not desirable)."
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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