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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
 Posted - 11/09/2001 : 09:47:45 [Permalink]
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Miahking, I'm not sure how your storytelling relates to the level of skepticism present on this board, but I don't think your in any position to be questioning it. What is a libertarian socialist anyway?
There was an earthquake! A terrible flood! Locusts! It wasn't my fault, I swear to god! - Jake Blues |
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@tomic
Administrator
USA
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2001 : 09:59:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
What is a libertarian socialist anyway?
That would be like the militant wing of a pacifist organization.
@tomic
Gravity, not just a good idea...it's the law! |
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2001 : 12:23:39 [Permalink]
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quote:
I haven't yet seen one post that doesn't represent a nationalist conflict of interest. (Miahking)
So if we support the United States we are automatically suspect? No citizens are allowed to speak positively about the US? You, of course, have no such conflict of interest because you come with a pre-determined anti-US bias, perhaps? (That's mostly an honest question, believe it or not)
Other than that, Valiant's right about the bomb and the plane raid.
My kids still love me. |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2001 : 12:55:23 [Permalink]
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quote:
I am sorry I don't have multiple hours to read every message and respond to every bit of misinformation and confusion i see. there is indeed much.
*LOL* Let's see, you don't have the time to read the thread, but you see "misinformation and confusion," "there is indeed much," indeed!?! Just amazing.., no, absolutely incredible!
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2001 : 14:55:48 [Permalink]
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You guys aren't buying into the idea that the U.S. knew that Japan would surrender earlier if they were given assurances that the Emperor could hang around?
quote:
Other than that, Valiant's right about the bomb and the plane raid.
My kids still love me.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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lpetrich
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 06:56:43 [Permalink]
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miahking:
2.) I haven't yet seen one post that doesn't represent a nationalist conflict of interest. And these folks call themselves skeptics. I've seen many 'victim syndrome' whiny rants about how the US didn't deserve this.
LP:
Do you have any reasonable argument otherwise?
miahking:
Well, did 500,000 Iraqi children deserve to starve, according to Albright "the price was worth it." to a nationalist, this doesn't prick the conscience, they are unworthy, uncivilized targets.
LP:
One problem: Saddam Hussein. He's been trying to build up Iraq's armed forces, and his "guns rather than butter" policy has likely been the culprit.
miahking:
More importantly, I haven't seen any dialog on here about the CIA's potential role in these terrorist attacks, considering they trained the Islamic terrorist networks we're now accusing with no significant evidence.
LP:
How could the CIA possibly be involved? Do you really think that they were trying to pull off some super Reichstag fire?
miahking:
Mike Ruppert did an excellent expose, given a heads up by the French media: the CIA visited bin Laden in July in a Hospital
LP:
Seems like they were trying to spy on him, and nothing more.
miahking:
Why has the CIA obstructed the FBI's efforts to capture bin Laden
LP:
The FBI is purely domestic; also, there's the whole problem of antagonistic bureaucracies.
miahking:
"Early in 1934, Irene Du Pont and William S. Knudsen [General Motors president] reached their explosion point over president Roosevelt. Along with friends of the Morgan Bank and General Motors, certain Du Pont backers financed a coup d'etat that would overthrow the president with the aid of a $3 million-funded army of terrorists, modeled on the fascist movement in Paris known as the Croix de Feu... On the other hand, Roosevelt also knew that if he were to arrest the leaders of the Houses of Morgan and Du Pont, it would create an unthinkable national crisis... Not for the first or last time in his career, he was aware that there were powers greater than he in the United States." ...
LP:
Powers greater than he? What sort of conspiracy-mongering nonsense is that? The rest of the conspiracy theory is more convincing, however; the Nazis and Fascists of Europe were both opponents of independent labor unions and friends of big business; Adolf Hitler regarded the "socialist" parts of his party's name and platform as vote-getting scams. So it would not be surprising if big business leaders had wanted to have the same sort of leadership here.
miahking:
I have read that this coup was only prevented because hte general the industrialist chose as the primary fascist candidate was fortunately a democrat and brought this plan to the knowledge of the government. ...
LP:
Quite correct. He refused to play the part of "simple patriot rescuing America from its evil leaders".
miahking:
As World war II came to the us, one might assume that these 'great' corporations would join in on the war effort, by force if neccessary. in fact, the oposite is true. ...
LP:
Or they were simply afraid of losing business. No collusion is necessary here; United and American airlines weren't explicitly working with Al Qaeda in order to produce the Sept. 11 kamikaze hijackings.
miahking:
after the war, as if this wasn't enough, these same corporations sued the US government for damages against their factories that produced weapons, vehicles, and products for the Nazi war engine, AND THEY WON, in an America Court!
LP:
Where is that from?
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lpetrich
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 08:15:06 [Permalink]
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Gorgo:
No, the thousand plane raid was on the day that Japan surrendered. Truman didn't announce it until the next day. ...
LP:
Gorgo, what makes Noam Chomsky right and everybody else wrong about that big raid?
Every other source says that Noam Chomsky is dead wrong:
http://www.airspacemag.com/ASM/Mag/Index/1995/AS/tlrd.html
http://pw1.netcom.com/~jb29miss/b29.htm
http://www.marketrends.net/WWIIsecret/main.html
There was a big, 1000-plane bombing of Japan during the daytime on the 14th, featuring over 800 bombers and nearly 200 fighters and hitting several targets.
An additional raid followed; a nighttime bombing of an oil refinery in Japan; that mission had a special codeword for Japan's surrender: "Apple". But it was never broadcast.
Nearly an hour before takeoff, there was a broadcast from Japan announcing that an official surrender announcement was to be made soon; that was assumed on our side to be foot-dragging.
The bombing had the longest distance of the Japan-bombing missions ever done, but it was a success; that refinery was devastated.
And during that night, there was a would-be coup in which some rebel officers hoped to kidnap the Emperor and keep him from broadcasting his surrender message; however, the surrender recordings survived by being carefully hidden away.
That surrender and President Truman's acceptance were announced as the planes were on their way back to Guam; one of the pilots was excited enough to make his plane do wild maneuvers.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 08:31:55 [Permalink]
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About what spefically did you think Chomsky was wrong and everyone else is right? Chomsky's comment is that Japan technically surrendered on the 14th. The point wasn't that Japan had surrendered and this was just a brutal bit of fun. The point is that it was overkill, unnecessary.
My question is, at what point did Truman know about Japan's surrender, or their intent to surrender.
Regardless, the bigger point is that the U.S. knew what the Japanese would need to surrender. They eventually surrendered under the same terms that they would have surrendered under at the end of July.
However, even if they didn't know anything, the United States has no business holding their behavior above the behavior of others during wartime.
quote:
Gorgo:
No, the thousand plane raid was on the day that Japan surrendered. Truman didn't announce it until the next day. ...
LP:
Gorgo, what makes Noam Chomsky right and everybody else wrong about that big raid?
Every other source says that Noam Chomsky is dead wrong:
http://www.airspacemag.com/ASM/Mag/Index/1995/AS/tlrd.html
http://pw1.netcom.com/~jb29miss/b29.htm
http://www.marketrends.net/WWIIsecret/main.html
There was a big, 1000-plane bombing of Japan during the daytime on the 14th, featuring over 800 bombers and nearly 200 fighters and hitting several targets.
An additional raid followed; a nighttime bombing of an oil refinery in Japan; that mission had a special codeword for Japan's surrender: "Apple". But it was never broadcast.
Nearly an hour before takeoff, there was a broadcast from Japan announcing that an official surrender announcement was to be made soon; that was assumed on our side to be foot-dragging.
The bombing had the longest distance of the Japan-bombing missions ever done, but it was a success; that refinery was devastated.
And during that night, there was a would-be coup in which some rebel officers hoped to kidnap the Emperor and keep him from broadcasting his surrender message; however, the surrender recordings survived by being carefully hidden away.
That surrender and President Truman's acceptance were announced as the planes were on their way back to Guam; one of the pilots was excited enough to make his plane do wild maneuvers.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens
Edited by - Gorgo on 11/11/2001 09:11:46 |
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lpetrich
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 12:38:27 [Permalink]
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Gorgo:
About what spefically did you think Chomsky was wrong and everyone else is right? Japan surrendered on the 14th, of that there is not question. My question is, at what point did Truman know about it.
LP:
Gorgo, you're making a total ass out of yourself. President Truman learned about the surrender only when it was officially announced. True, surrender plans had been in the works during the 14th; the surrender "announcement" on that day was mearly an unofficial announcement that a surrender announcement was in the works.
Since this was unofficial, this might have been disinformation; that's why the bombing continued that day and into the night.
So Chomsky is still wrong. And I don't see why he's worth crying for.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 14:02:49 [Permalink]
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Your need to talk about asses does not help your side. Also, you posted before I edited, which is alright, but does not speak to what I wrote. You still haven't answered my question. Why is it that 800 planes (which you said that it was, then changed) is okay, and 1,000 is abominable?
quote:
Gorgo:
About what spefically did you think Chomsky was wrong and everyone else is right? Japan surrendered on the 14th, of that there is not question. My question is, at what point did Truman know about it.
LP:
Gorgo, you're making a total ass out of yourself. President Truman learned about the surrender only when it was officially announced. True, surrender plans had been in the works during the 14th; the surrender "announcement" on that day was mearly an unofficial announcement that a surrender announcement was in the works.
Since this was unofficial, this might have been disinformation; that's why the bombing continued that day and into the night.
So Chomsky is still wrong. And I don't see why he's worth crying for.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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lpetrich
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 15:33:46 [Permalink]
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Gorgo:
Your need to talk about asses does not help your side.
LP:
Such as what you've been making yourself? IMO, Noam Chomsky would have a *much* better case if he did not insist on seeing US imperialistic depravity elsewhere. After a while, it comes to look like a knee-jerk response.
Gorgo:
Also, you posted before I edited, which is alright, but does not speak to what I wrote. You still haven't answered my question. Why is it that 800 planes (which you said that it was, then changed) is okay, and 1,000 is abominable?
LP:
How did I claim that? My 800 figure referred to the number of bombers in the raid. Including the fighters made the figure 1000.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2001 : 16:45:10 [Permalink]
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LP, you are right, I am wrong on this point, my apologies. I misremembered what you wrote. Chomsky did not say after the surrender. He said "technically," which may or may not be too much spin. However, the point is not that Japan had surrendered, but that after Hiroshima and Nagasaki, anything else was definitely overkill.
quote:
However, the conventional sort of bombing raids continued until the day of the surrender; there was a big one with over 800 B-29 bombers on August 14, one day before Emperor Hirohito did a radio broadcast announcing Japan's surrender.
Noam Chomsky may have mixed up the order of events, simply out of a willingness to believe that our leaders are guilty of terrible war crimes.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2001 : 08:35:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
You guys aren't buying into the idea that the U.S. knew that Japan would surrender earlier if they were given assurances that the Emperor could hang around?
quote:
Other than that, Valiant's right about the bomb and the plane raid.
My kids still love me.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens
Nope. Not buying that load of hooey. The Americans were used to the code of Bushido. After commanders saw the garrisons on Attu and Kiska do Bansai charges or walk out laughing with grenades sans pins next to their heads, surrender until declared was not realistic. In addition, villagers in the nothern Philipene(sp) islands were convinced that the US was so horrible that the villagers jumped to their deaths from cliffs while US destroyers broadcast entreaties not to jump. It was in the face of overwhelming opposition that the Japanese forces threw their lives away because surrender was dishonorable. It was this repeated consistently time and time again which convinced the military commanders that until the Japanese truely surrendered, they would have to invade the mainland.
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2001 : 11:40:36 [Permalink]
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From ABC news:
quote:
Nov. 13 — The Northern Alliance took control of the Afghan capital of Kabul today amid scenes of jubilation as the Taliban fled south in the pre-dawn hours.
As Northern Alliance soldiers entered Kabul, they met with little resistance, although reporters entering the city with alliance troops said there were incidents of looting and some Pakistani and Arab soldiers (read mercenaries) fighting for the Taliban were summarily shot.
But civilians were unharmed and the capture was relatively peaceful, said reporters.
God is great... 
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2001 : 21:21:43 [Permalink]
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For any of you, that might still be curious as to Norm Chomsky's relevance...
The Chomsky Menace
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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