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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
 Posted - 11/05/2001 : 09:21:37 [Permalink]
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quote:
Rubysue diatribe continued: Exhibit A: Noam Chomsky, Institute Professor of Linguistics at MIT, prolific author, popular lecturer, observer of American politics and foreign policy.
Exhibit A, Subpart One, Four selected Chomsky quotes illustrating the principle of “Let us Eschew Obfuscation” OR “that damn Chomsky must be using the MIT supercomputers for his buzzword generators again….”
“Perhaps this is an obvious point, but the democratic postulate is that the media are independent and committed to discovering and reporting the truth, and that they do not merely reflect the world as powerful groups wish it to be perceived. Leaders of the media claim that their news choices rest on unbiased professional and objective criteria, and they have support for this contention in the intellectual community. If, however, the powerful are able to fix the premises of discourse, to decide what the general populace is allowed to see, hear, and think about, and to "manage" public opinion by regular propaganda campaigns, the standard view of how the system works is at serious odds with reality.”
[Huh?? Color me stupid, but I have no idea what this man is trying to say and HE's the professor of linguistics?]
Chomski translation: The media are under the control of the corporate masters. The only expose' of corporate misdealings is when other corporations gang up on the written about corporations.
(Damn, I've been into politics too long. Sounds like Chomski is running.)
quote:
“The process of barring public interference with important matters takes a step forward when elections do not even enable the public to select among programs that originate elsewhere, but become merely a procedure for selecting a symbolic figure.”
[What in the wide, wide world of sports is this supposed to mean? Or does it mean anything?]
Chomski translation: The political parties are just a sham. The Republicans and Democrats have set, stagnat goals. If you vote for one of them, you endorse those goals. If the Republicans put up a potato, it will still vote the party line. Ditto for Democrats. Most third parties with any chance of winning, too.
(background music: Hail to the Chief)
quote:
“The general subservience of the articulate intelligentsia to the framework of state propaganda is not only unrecognized, it is strenuously denied by the propaganda system. The press and the intelligentsia in general are held to be fiercely independent, critical, antagonistic to the state, even suffused by a trendy anti-Americanism. It is quite true that controversy rages over government policies and the errors or even crimes of government officials and agencies. But the impression of internal dissidence is misleading. A more careful analysis shows that this controversy takes place, for the most part, within the narrow limits of a set of patriotic premises. Thus it is quite tolerable--indeed, a contribution to the propaganda system--for the Free Press to denounce the government for its "errors" in attempting "to defend South Vietnam from North Vietnamese aggression," since by so doing it helps to establish more firmly the basic myth: that the United States was not engaged in a savage attack on South Vietnam but was rather "defending" it. If even the hostile critics adopt these assumptions, then clearly they must be true.”
[WTF??? Earth to Noam, Earth to Noam – Speak English, Goddammit!]
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2001 : 11:01:18 [Permalink]
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http://monkeyfist.com/ChomskyArchive/essays/kolodney_html
I guess I have to conclude that Werner Cohn is guilty of what he accuses Chomsky of. I lot of made-up stuff with a lot of footnotes that are either too hard to check, or that have nothing to do with supporting his views.
The matter is immaterial anyway. If Chomsky's writings were anti-semitic that would be different. They are not.
The worst that this guy says about the New York Times thing is that Chomsky got the words "Homeland" and "State" mixed up. Wow. He was criticizing Chomsky for saying something about the "Jewish media" but Chomsky was merely saying what if Arabs said this, not let's make a list of everything Jewish in New York and say that it's bad.
Chomsky's work stands apart from these wild accusations. Not flawless, certainly, but not the monster that you guys portray, either.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2001 : 11:06:13 [Permalink]
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quote:
Chomski translation: The media are under the control of the corporate masters. The only expose' of corporate misdealings is when other corporations gang up on the written about corporations.
(Damn, I've been into politics too long. Sounds like Chomski is running.)
The corporate media is corporate.
quote:
Chomski translation: The political parties are just a sham. The Republicans and Democrats have set, stagnat goals. If you vote for one of them, you endorse those goals. If the Republicans put up a potato, it will still vote the party line. Ditto for Democrats. Most third parties with any chance of winning, too.
(background music: Hail to the Chief)
Not far off.
quote:
Chomski translation: US Bad! US Very bad and evil. All other intelligent and well respected people have sold out to the bad and evil US government.
(Background music changes to Volga Riverboatmen)
Absurd.
quote:
Chomski translation: Although they don't have censorship written down anywhere, it is an unwritten rule. US government (remember, bad and evil) controls what is allowed to be debated mostly controlling it to unimportant and trivial matters.
(I'm not drinking enough, he still is translatable. Completely wrong, but translatable.)
Not quite that simple. Again, actually reading Chomsky and attempting to understand what he's said would be in order here.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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SJ
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2001 : 11:18:40 [Permalink]
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This forum contains impressively mind-numbing displays of psychic resistance. Maybe I just came in at the wrong time over the weekend, because much of today's discourse is reasoned and civil. However, some weekend contributors let loose their vengeful invective far too often to be taken seriously as thoughtful people. Some of you feeling a little insecure about your intellectual strengths?
The psychic resistance to analysis of our military and foreign policies from the perspective of those who feel the bullets and bombs is a harbinger of the totalitarianism several of you seem to want America to adopt. As the wise elder Rueben Snake said, if we don't get off this path, we will surely reach where we are headed. I want off. Auf Wiedersehen.
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NubiWan
Skeptic Friend
USA
424 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2001 : 11:58:56 [Permalink]
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Huh! Welp, confess to being "intellectually insecure," but me knows what me knows.
When some A-hole punches me in the nose, and is intent on kicking me in the cup, me don't pause and wonder. "Now why did he do dat," or "What could me change in myself so he won't hit me again?" I hit him as hard as me can with whatever can grab, and keep at it, till only one of us is standing. Did take 911 personally, and the reasonable course of action, is the same as in a bar-fight IMO. The only thing me wants to understand about my enemy, is what are his weaknesses, and where can me hit him, that will hurt the most. When the dust is settled, and me wounds are on the mend, might examine the causes for the incident, but not before.
"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2001 : 12:02:03 [Permalink]
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SJ, you've made 3 posts which amount basically to insults of people here that you obviously don't agree with. Do you actually have an interest in discussion, or are you just here to belittle people for an ego boost?
Put up or shut up.
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Sum Ergo Cogito |
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Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2001 : 13:52:35 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Chomski translation: The media are under the control of the corporate masters. The only expose' of corporate misdealings is when other corporations gang up on the written about corporations.
(Damn, I've been into politics too long. Sounds like Chomski is running.)
The corporate media is corporate.
quote:
Chomski translation: The political parties are just a sham. The Republicans and Democrats have set, stagnat goals. If you vote for one of them, you endorse those goals. If the Republicans put up a potato, it will still vote the party line. Ditto for Democrats. Most third parties with any chance of winning, too.
(background music: Hail to the Chief)
Not far off.
quote:
Chomski translation: US Bad! US Very bad and evil. All other intelligent and well respected people have sold out to the bad and evil US government.
(Background music changes to Volga Riverboatmen)
Absurd.
quote:
Chomski translation: Although they don't have censorship written down anywhere, it is an unwritten rule. US government (remember, bad and evil) controls what is allowed to be debated mostly controlling it to unimportant and trivial matters.
(I'm not drinking enough, he still is translatable. Completely wrong, but translatable.)
Not quite that simple. Again, actually reading Chomsky and attempting to understand what he's said would be in order here.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens
In the interest of fairness, What do you think the quoted passages say?
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2001 : 16:01:28 [Permalink]
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Well, I keep seeing false dichotomies here. Either the U.S. has an aggressive press that might be even too free, or the government is evil and is torturing reporters into regurgitating only approved ideas. Either Hitler is Evil with a capital 'E' and George Bush is Good with a capital 'G' or everyone in the U.S. is Evil with a capital 'E.'
What we are talking about are things that for the most part most people will agree with some reservations
U.S. agencies have an agenda. The people in them have press conferences and make speeches and write press releases every day. The corporate media, in order to save a buck, will generally take what is said and present it to the public. Sometimes the pundits will chew around the edges. Sometimes something is so important that we might get ideas from such diverse camps as say, Henry Kissinger and Lawrence Eagleburger. Generally, there is very little question. Look at Viet Nam. There was a great deal of dissent allowed in the mainstream media about the war within certain limits. It was okay to say that the war was good. It was okay to say that the war was good, but unwinnable. It was okay to say that the intent of the war was good, but that incompetence screwed it up. It wasn't okay to say that the U.S. brutally and murdersously attacked Southeast Asia.
It's often said that reporters are itching to find out what'w really going on and the idea of corporate or government limitations is ridiculous. However, reporters don't run the corporate media. If one doesn't have some agreement (variations again within certain limits) with the party line, they don't become Dan Rather or Bill O'Reilly. That doesn't mean that there aren't exceptions, nor does it mean that there isn't sometimes a great deal of variation within certain limits. But that doesn't mean that the system doesn't create certain limits. Some of those things are by design, and some of those things are just because of the tendencies of the system, and of human nature. Why rock the boat when you can make a buck by going along?
quote:
In the interest of fairness, What do you think the quoted passages say?
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2001 : 18:31:19 [Permalink]
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Your college library should have this. You want volume 5. I'll look it up when I get to one of the local universities but I think that makes my point. Don't quote me, but I gather this is offical Army Air Force history if I'm reading it right.
quote:
Piltdown - as regards the "thousand plane raid" after Japan technically surrendered:
http://monkeyfist.com:8080/ChomskyArchive/essays/pacific_html#10
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2001 : 18:49:00 [Permalink]
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Bye now.
quote:
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens |
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lpetrich
Skeptic Friend
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2001 : 20:06:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
I wonder what evidence Noam Chomsky can provide that there was a massive air raid on Japan after the surrender? I have a whole library of World War 2 references. Not one of them mentions any such incident. ...
However, the conventional sort of bombing raids continued until the day of the surrender; there was a big one with over 800 B-29 bombers on August 14, one day before Emperor Hirohito did a radio broadcast announcing Japan's surrender.
Noam Chomsky may have mixed up the order of events, simply out of a willingness to believe that our leaders are guilty of terrible war crimes.
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rubysue
Skeptic Friend
USA
199 Posts |
Posted - 11/05/2001 : 20:41:30 [Permalink]
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Ok, this is the final straw!!
Anyone that even remotely attempts to defend Chomsky and his "principles" has got rancid mush for brains. I can't and won't "play nice with others" when what I consider to be a legitimate threat to my personal freedom and security is pulling stunts like this.
With "friends" like Chomsky, who needs any enemies? I personally consider this man's actions to be traitorous to the United States in a time of war. This goes far beyond "first amendment rights to an opinion" and straight into consorting with and providing comfort to the enemy. Our nation is trying desperately to battle the forces of terroristic evil that would eagerly destroy our civilization if they could and this degenerate motherfucker is traveling around South Asia spreading outright lies and outrageous propaganda and actively seeking "ratchet up the hate" among the citizens of our fragile coalition.
Out of the country, indeed, Gorgo. You probably knew that he was doing the "hate America" tour in the most volatile regions of the world during this time of crisis. Do you condone these actions? Or do you, Miss SJ?
"god" help us; I hope you two enjoy living under Shari'a law. I'm sure you will look lovely in your Burqua, SJ.
http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=11/6/01&Cat=4&Num=018
rubysue
If your head is wax, don't walk in the sun.
Edited by - rubysue on 11/05/2001 20:41:55
Edited by - rubysue on 11/05/2001 20:57:31 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2001 : 03:16:34 [Permalink]
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Well, SJ's right about one thing. Who can take this kind of post seriously?
Well, now I understand Rubysue. She had me fooled for a while. All along she's been one of Saddam's goons. Imagine quoting the Teheran Times in the middle of a war against terrorism. Cheese and Rice!
quote:
Ok, this is the final straw!!
Anyone that even remotely attempts to defend Chomsky and his "principles" has got rancid mush for brains.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens
Edited by - Gorgo on 11/06/2001 03:30:25 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 11/06/2001 : 03:21:38 [Permalink]
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LP, did I read the link wrong or is it misquoted? Or did you not read it?
If I'm wrong on this, please tell me why?
And why is 800 a walk in the park, and 1,000 a "terrible war crime?"
http://monkeyfist.com:8080/ChomskyArchive/essays/pacific_html#10
quote:
However, the conventional sort of bombing raids continued until the day of the surrender; there was a big one with over 800 B-29 bombers on August 14, one day before Emperor Hirohito did a radio broadcast announcing Japan's surrender.
Noam Chomsky may have mixed up the order of events, simply out of a willingness to believe that our leaders are guilty of terrible war crimes.
Lisa Lisa, sad Lisa Lisa - Cat Stevens
Edited by - Gorgo on 11/06/2001 03:41:21 |
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Topic Locked
