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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
 Posted - 11/25/2005 : 13:51:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Perhaps coming in fourth or even tenth in a desegregated competition would mean more to the athlete than coming in first against the “weaker sex.”
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And look, I am not saying that I expect all the sports that Dude named to be suddenly taken over by woman able to out perform the men. I am only suggesting that the reason for allowing or excluding a person should be based on the ability to perform and not based on a generalization that has lead to discrimination based on something that has nothing to do with an individuals ability.
Okay, let's take just one example, then. How about marathon? There's the Boston Marathon, for which records exist which allow comparison. And what they show is that in 2001, 2002 and 2003, the best women marathoners would have failed to make the top 15 if competing against the men. In 2004, the best two women runners would have come in 13th and 14th. The best women runners age 18-39 average 4th place (5th, 4th, 4th and 3rd by year) against men age 40-49.
In the 2004 Marine Corps Marathon, the best woman runner came in 40th overall. In the 2004 Olympics, the best female runner would have come in 63rd place against the men.
Eliminating gender discrimination in the marathon (at least) would relegate every single female endurance runner to the footnotes of the sport. This isn't a cultural bias or a social construct, it's a difference in ability, created by biology. We know this difference exists, just like we know differences in ability exist for different age groups, and level the playing field appropriately.
And, where biological differences don't exist (like in auto racing), the barriers which are present are based upon sexist stereotypes, which is why they appear to be vanishing over time. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2005 : 20:52:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dave W.:
Eliminating gender discrimination in the marathon (at least) would relegate every single female endurance runner to the footnotes of the sport. This isn't a cultural bias or a social construct, it's a difference in ability, created by biology. We know this difference exists, just like we know differences in ability exist for different age groups, and level the playing field appropriately.
I am talking about how we socialize our children. Not how to produce world-class athletes. Male and some female runners who excel, will excel, regardless of whether they are in segrigated PE classes. My guess is that the woman who came in 40th in the 2004 Marine Corps Marathon would have beat most of the boys in her high school, if not all of them. But if your looking for world class female athletes, the girls will probably have a better chance of becoming world class if PE from elementary school through high school is integrated.
When we exclude children from certain activities based on gender without regard to individual ability, we are teaching both genders a life lesson. A lesson that is not easy to unlearn…
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
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Genetic Literacy Project |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2005 : 21:41:10 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
... That's how it was for me.
Unfortunate that you have to just watch, Sib, but the way you describe it is the way it should be. But there are problems here in the US, and probably there as well. I suspect it just "comes with the territory." |
Ron White |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2005 : 22:21:25 [Permalink]
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quote:
When we exclude children from certain activities based on gender without regard to individual ability, we are teaching both genders a life lesson.
If things like track & field weren't broken up by gender, then there wouldn't have been ANY female competitors. No girl could throw the same weight shotput as far as I could (or any of the other guys), no girl could come anywhere close to beating our best 10 male sprinters.
And yes, we are teaching them a valuable life lesson. That boys are different from girls. Male bodies are stronger and faster. This holds true for all levels of competition past the 6th or 7th grade. Once puberty kicks in, biology is no longer "fair" in this regard.
I can tell you, that in my highschool, if the sports teams weren't set up differently for boys/girls, then there would have been maybe one girl on the varsity basketball squad, none at all on the track & field varsity squad (for any event), none for football and none for wrestling.
That would teach them all one hell of a lesson: Girls suck at sports and shouldn't even bother.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2005 : 22:45:47 [Permalink]
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Dude is correct on this. And what goes on in high school carries over to the amateur and professional sports later on. But who in their right mind would compete in a sport where the biological desk is stacked completely against them?
You seem to think, Kil, that an 18-year-old (or older) world-class athlete would perform better in highschool than all the other kids, but that seems to me to be wishful genetic thinking. I have little doubt that if we picked, for example, one of the best women marathoners and looked up her highschool track record, she wouldn't be coming close besting the top boys back then, even if none of those boys went on to be world-class runners themselves. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2005 : 23:08:05 [Permalink]
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quote:
I have little doubt that if we picked, for example, one of the best women marathoners and looked up her highschool track record, she wouldn't be coming close besting the top boys back then,
There may be some rare instances of this, especially in small schools and small towns.
But just expand that to include state competitions between the schools. Find the best female runner right now, go back to her highschool days, and there is no doubt that she would not have times even close to the best boys in regional or state competition among highschool atheletes.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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beskeptigal
SFN Die Hard
USA
3834 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2005 : 01:18:03 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
I have little doubt that if we picked, for example, one of the best women marathoners and looked up her highschool track record, she wouldn't be coming close besting the top boys back then,
There may be some rare instances of this, especially in small schools and small towns.
But just expand that to include state competitions between the schools. Find the best female runner right now, go back to her highschool days, and there is no doubt that she would not have times even close to the best boys in regional or state competition among highschool atheletes.
Hey, I came in second in the whole school in 8th grade in the 600 meter. Yes, a boy was first, but it isn't like I practiced or anything. And I beat them all in archery in college, not that there were that many of us competing. |
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Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2005 : 03:20:07 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by ronnywhite
quote:
Originally posted by Siberia
... That's how it was for me.
Unfortunate that you have to just watch, Sib, but the way you describe it is the way it should be. But there are problems here in the US, and probably there as well. I suspect it just "comes with the territory."
Yes, but like I said, the sports they practiced are pretty much level for both genders - and usually (small sample, though) girls would beat boys in soccer and volleyball, but lose in basketball and handball. It wasn't sports training - it was fitness and socializing, only.
And I didn't mind it. Personally, the only sport I'd practice is horseback riding, and that is a sport in which women excell, quite easily, over men. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2005 : 10:33:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Siberia:
Yes, but like I said, the sports they practiced are pretty much level for both genders - and usually (small sample, though) girls would beat boys in soccer and volleyball, but lose in basketball and handball. It wasn't sports training - it was fitness and socializing, only.
Well, I give up. Based on the fact that all countries do not do it the way we do I believe demonstrates that our approach to physical education is a social construct. It is a social construct based on gender bias and it promotes gender bias. And it seems to me that most of us have bought into it hook line and sinker.
For those who only think that physical education is about winning, I guess it is a good system. I think there is a bigger picture to consider.
Dude and Dave, you say that the physical differences must be acknowledged but there is this. In our present system we will never know how many more of the girls might excel given the chance to compete from the very beginning of physical education in an integrated system. It doesn't matter though since most of the girls (like most of the boys) will not excel. My point however was not that we should have the goal of physical education being about creating great athletes. It is about promoting physical fitness and socialization skills.
Do you remember the arguments to keep woman out of combat in the services? And how about those females who wanted to be firepersons or cops? The arguments were pretty much the same as the arguments you guys are making about physical education…
quote:
Me:
I guess what I am saying is that we first need to understand how our culture affects our attitudes and behaviors in order to figure out how to change what we have learned. Often that means we have to consciously question who we are, how we got that way and how what we do affects others.
I am of the opinion that the way physical education is being taught in America is based on a culture that promotes sexism.
Since we grew up in this culture it is easy to dismiss the idea that the sexism is so ingrained in our thinking that we sometimes miss how very institutionalized it is. Most of us do not want to see ourselves as sexist. But sometimes “we can't see the forest for the trees.”
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Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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Subjectmatter
Skeptic Friend
173 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2005 : 11:24:19 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Well, I give up. Based on the fact that all countries do not do it the way we do ... But sometimes “we can't see the forest for the trees.”
*Applause*
Wow, it seems as though every part of my argument has been covered, except with more clarity and depth than I could have produced.
I would just like to add the following point:
A persons sex is a genetic condition. There are plenty of other genetic conditions which have an effect upon our athletic prowess. |
Sibling Atom Bomb of Couteous Debate |
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Ricky
SFN Die Hard
USA
4907 Posts |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2005 : 12:05:02 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Kil
Dude and Dave, you say that the physical differences must be acknowledged but there is this. In our present system we will never know how many more of the girls might excel given the chance to compete from the very beginning of physical education in an integrated system. It doesn't matter though since most of the girls (like most of the boys) will not excel.
No, it doesn't matter because we also will not know how many more of the girls might excel given the chance to compete in a segregated system, because they got fed up with getting beaten by the boys in an integrated system. This argument from ignorance cuts both ways, which is why it is worthless.
Also, implied by your statement is the idea that there exist some number of girls who have great ability but refuse to make use of it because they're prohibited from competing against boys. That (if it really exists) is a sexist attitude, and a simple case of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Such poor sportspeople shouldn't be coddled.quote:
My point however was not that we should have the goal of physical education being about creating great athletes. It is about promoting physical fitness and socialization skills.
Prior to locker rooms (that'd be through sixth grade in my county), all gym classes and school sports are integrated. If a kid isn't well-socialized with respect to competition by the time he/she is 12, more time in the ever-increasing competitiveness of junior high and high school won't help much. The sore losers and gloating winners I knew in seventh grade continued on that path throughout high school.quote:
Do you remember the arguments to keep woman out of combat in the services? And how about those females who wanted to be firepersons or cops? The arguments were pretty much the same as the arguments you guys are making about physical education…
What utter crap. The idea that competitive sports should be segregated because there's a genetic difference in ability has nothing to do with the mistaken idea that women cannot perform at a specific level. A firefighter, regardless of sex, has got to be able to drag my fat ass out of a burning building. The strongest firefighters are generally going to be men, but that doesn't matter one bit when we're talking about meeting (not exceeding) a particular standard of ability.quote:
I am of the opinion that the way physical education is being taught in America is based on a culture that promotes sexism.
Oh, absolutely the American culture as a whole promotes sexism (one need look no further than the nearest TV to see it). The idea that integrating grade-school sports will do anything to fix that is what I find ridiculous. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2005 : 12:41:22 [Permalink]
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Does this softball rule promote sexism or does it promote competition?Rule 14, Sec. 4. When a male Batter receives a base on balls or intentional walk, he will be awarded First and Second Base with the next female Batter having the option to walk or bat. How about this rule:Rule 14, Sec. 2. The 11 Inch softball will be used when a female is batting and a 12 Inch softball will be used when a male is batting. |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2005 : 15:22:11 [Permalink]
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quote:
Dave W.:
Also, implied by your statement is the idea that there exist some number of girls who have great ability but refuse to make use of it because they're prohibited from competing against boys. That (if it really exists) is a sexist attitude, and a simple case of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Such poor sportspeople shouldn't be coddled.
Nope. What I am suggesting is that those girls will never even know that they have the ability. Or, that the ability may not be recognized and nurtured. They have been told that they don't have it (by inference) because they are girls and that notion is reinforced because they only get to play with the girls. They are only allowed one frame of reference, that one being that they are “the weaker sex.” That is why they are separated, right? I am not saying that they refuse to make use of what ever ability they may have. Nor did I imply it…
quote:
Me:
Do you remember the arguments to keep woman out of combat in the services? And how about those females who wanted to be firepersons or cops? The arguments were pretty much the same as the arguments you guys are making about physical education…
quote:
Dave W.: What utter crap. The idea that competitive sports should be segregated because there's a genetic difference in ability has nothing to do with the mistaken idea that women cannot perform at a specific level. A firefighter, regardless of sex, has got to be able to drag my fat ass out of a burning building. The strongest firefighters are generally going to be men, but that doesn't matter one bit when we're talking about meeting (not exceeding) a particular standard of ability.
Since I said that the same arguments about female gender differences were used to keep there from ever being female firefighters as you guys are making for not integrating PE, you have made the point for me. There are female firefighters able to “drag your fat ass out of a burning building.” The "utter crap" here is that you seemed to have purposely missed my point…
quote:
Dave:
Prior to locker rooms (that'd be through sixth grade in my county), all gym classes and school sports are integrated. If a kid isn't well-socialized with respect to competition by the time he/she is 12, more time in the ever-increasing competitiveness of junior high and high school won't help much.
Why is it that competition seems to top your list as the goal of physical education? I thought that physical education is the goal. You know, health and fitness. Adolescence is a crucial time of development, which includes the development of social skills and attitudes with regard to how kids come to view both themselves and the other sex. Separating them at that time, it seems to me, sends the wrong message.
(Oh, by the way, did you know that girls are not genetically predisposed to be as good at math as boys are..?  ) quote:
Dave:
Oh, absolutely the American culture as a whole promotes sexism (one need look no further than the nearest TV to see it). The idea that integrating grade-school sports will do anything to fix that is what I find rid |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
Genetic Literacy Project |
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ronnywhite
SFN Regular
501 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2005 : 17:27:48 [Permalink]
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Although fun and fair competition are the genuine intent of youth sports, at the higher-levels (college) here in the US, for decades the pressures of competition have been so high- partly because of the media-money involved- that college sports have become as "serious business" as professional sports, and the negative things that come with it- such as steroid use- has become increasingly common even at even the highschool level. Women use them as well at the higher levels of competition, especially in certain sports such as female bodybuilding/weightlifting (of course), track, and swimming.
If you pump a woman who has some natural athletic ability full of enough methyl testosterone, human growth hormone, etc. etc. you're artificially inducing a "masculine" physiological condition (or even "above-masculine" is just a matter of a few more cc in a syringe.) This kind of thing actually begins to "blur the line" between male and female sports to an extent. Not a healthy state of affairs, and tests for "doping" are common, but I suspect their use is still extremely common in sports at the higher levels... just a matter of knowing the "timing" and the right masking agents, most likely.
After the fall of the Soviet Union, a person associated with the East German olympic programs said they had a whole team of biochemists working exclusively on masking agents to enable their athletes to outwit the testing of the day. The Chinese female swimming team also picked-up the former East German women's swimming staff (who were notorious for doping scandals) and in a miraculously short time, world records started to fall to the formerly uncompetitive Chinese women swimmers (hmmmm.)
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Ron White |
| Edited by - ronnywhite on 11/26/2005 18:01:44 |
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