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Dog_Ed
Skeptic Friend
USA
126 Posts |
 Posted - 11/27/2001 : 01:51:09 [Permalink]
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Interesting discussion. Sorry I'm late...*grin* One of the things about the Potter books is that the "Muggles"--folks who know nothing of magic and hate it--are sometimes portrayed a thick-witted, ignorant, holier-than-thou bigots. Maybe this gets under the Fundie Christians' skins a bit? Hehe.
I have a 12-year-old son, and we bought tickets ahead of time and went to see the movie on opening day. It was worth it to him on a kid-values level. And he's read all the books twice...it's worth it to me to have him reading decently sophisticated work, since he really isn't the bookish type.
Personally, I think all religions must adapt to their host society or die. Christianity is having to adapt fairly quickly to keep up with science and technology in the West, and I think we see the evidence of its stress in the schisms and the wide spread between the Fundies and the progressive, almost Unitarian Christian sects. And for the record, I've been an atheist for as long as I can remember.
"Even Einstein put his foot in it sometimes" |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2001 : 03:05:42 [Permalink]
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Look, kids know its "pretend". The important thing is that they're reading. With the current anti-occult hysteria that the fundies are raising right now, could Tolkien have gotten "The Hobbit" published? Will there be outcry when LOTR movie comes on on Dec 19? (Ooo, can wait) Probably. Do the fundies realize LOTR is a rehash of Norse mythology. No, and please don't tell them.
I've read the first Potter book, and its nothing but good (with trusty sidekicks) vs evil, with good prevailing. Its set in a fantasy environment. BFD. Civilization will not end.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.
Edited by - Lisa on 07/05/2002 15:23:07 |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2001 : 07:20:54 [Permalink]
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This is the part that I found interesting; "The fact that some consider witchcraft a religion, the protesters said, meant that the school-led trip to the movie theater would constitute a violation of the separation of church and state and possibly lead to legal action." This tactic reminds me so much of the tactics used by the Klan, and other hate groups. I wonder what those same protesters would have had to say if the movie was 'Jesus of Nazareth' or 'The Ten Commandments.' Seems some Fundies show just another face of intolerance.
And I ain't no atheist neither. I'm just a plain old country boy.(Can't you tell by the triple negative) Besides, Christians have just as much right to act intolerant as atheists, or agnostics. The market's wide open.
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2001 : 08:11:54 [Permalink]
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Tim, it's not so much that we automatically see xians as the problem - it's that we see the fundamental xians who want to cram their particular view of religion down everyone elses throat without regard for their constitutional rights that are the problem. This small minority group imposed their will on everyone else. I would be curious to know if any of the idiots actually had children in school or attending the showing of Harry Potter. However, from the article, it's given to understand that all the children in the class going were given permission by their parents. This was nothing more than an intimidation tactic and them saying we don't like it therefore we're going to destroy everyone elses opportunity to enjoy something that we've never seen but because it deals with witchcraft (as if it works) that we consider evil and a machination of the great satan himself.
You see the problem here - it's called theocracy. Someone else telling me what my children can and can not watch - when they have no business sticking their damn noses in it to begin with. Don't want your child to see the movie - don't sign the permission slip and don't take them. Pretty simple.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 03:00:02 [Permalink]
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Trish, I entirely agree with you. This tactic of attempting to further the cause of certain fringe elements by using the Constitution against itself is quite common, as I am sure you are aware. Groups on the extreme right, as well as the extreme left have no problems with using their free speech rights to obstruct the free speech rights of those that they disagree with.
However, I think that I may have given the impression that non-Christians are as intolerant as Christians, which is far from the truth, and I apologize for that. I meant only to say that no one has the market on bull headedness--Especially me.
Even so, I live in an area where true fundamentalists are abundant, but by no means the majority. Yet, the problem is that the fundamentalists are often treated as authority in these matters. For some reason, a strong relgious personna reflects Biblical knowledge. Furthermore, the local community leaders were educated mostly in parochial schools, and received secondary degrees in non-science related fields. This is a mostly working class community with very strong religous ties, especially to the Catholic church. In other words, knowledge in So. Louisiana is shaped mostly by authority, though any secular authority is treated with indifference at best, and contempt at worse.
I've found that when we read the Bible we often see contradictions, mistakes, and fairytail like stories with little foundation in historic fact. A fundamentalist reads each word as a divine gift of truth. Yet, when we look at what is right and wrong, we look at how someone's actions affect the rights of another. When a fundamentalist looks at right and wrong they generally see what Christian authority of the day sees as what is good and evil. A Christian leader can and will quote 'scripture' without context, to mean whatever they wish, and that lesson is absorbed by the 'flock' without another thought. Unfortunately, this 'flock' is not always fundamentalists, but are as often 'indoctrinated' Christians doing their Sunday duty. This is where I think the real problem is.
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Garrette
SFN Regular
USA
562 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 03:31:00 [Permalink]
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Let me play devil's advocate just so I can figure out what the proper counter-argument would be:
quote:
"The fact that some consider witchcraft a religion, the protesters said, meant that the school-led trip to the movie theater would constitute a violation of the separation of church and state and possibly lead to legal action." This tactic reminds me so much of the tactics used by the Klan, and other hate groups. I wonder what those same protesters would have had to say if the movie was 'Jesus of Nazareth' or 'The Ten Commandments.'
It's given to understand that all the children in the class going were given permission by their parents.
If I were a fundie, could I not argue that I am merely using the same argument the ACLU uses to keep the ten commandments from being posted in public schools and courtrooms?
After all, the community wants it, and they are the affected parties, but if the commandments must be kept out then we must also apply the same standard to movies that public schools support.
>>No, I don't make these arguments myself; just looking for flaws.
My kids still love me. |
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Tokyodreamer
SFN Regular
USA
1447 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 07:12:53 [Permalink]
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Well, I think the biggest flaw, and unsupportable position, is that the Harry Potter movie is in any way related to the "religion" of "witchcraft". (Is there any such thing? Or just some religions that practice witchcraft?)
While on the other side, you have the Ten Commandments, which can in no (rational and reasonable) way be said not to be about the Judeo/Christian religion.
I haven't seen it, but using the anti-Harry Potter crowd's argument, can it be compared to "The Wizard of Oz", in that if a movie has one or more witches in it, it is about the religion of witchcraft, and therefore unconstitutional for a public school to sponsor a viewing? What a can of worms that would open.
Can schools read and teach Shakespeare? It has witches and magic in it.
I think this issue really illustrates the level of uncritical thinking practiced by the followers of fundamentalist Christianity in this country. They hear from their fiery pastors about how evil this is, and they immediately take up the torches without even seeing or reading the story, much less thinking about it before blindly following the dictates of their God (it's the Pastor/Minister that's telling them what God really wants, right?)
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Sum Ergo Cogito
Edited by - tokyodreamer on 11/29/2001 07:15:35 |
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The Rat
SFN Regular
Canada
1370 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 07:27:08 [Permalink]
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quote:
Can schools read and teach Shakespeare? It has witches and magic in it.
Well, I don't know how old Billy boy is doing down there, but up here in the Great White North there have been numerous attempts to ban the bard due to perceived unflattering references to various religious/racial/ethnic groups. Fortunately I don't think they've yet been successful.
Free speech; excercise it or SHUT UP! |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 12:02:04 [Permalink]
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quote:
quote:
Can schools read and teach Shakespeare? It has witches and magic in it.
Well, I don't know how old Billy boy is doing down there, but up here in the Great White North there have been numerous attempts to ban the bard due to perceived unflattering references to various religious/racial/ethnic groups. Fortunately I don't think they've yet been successful.
Free speech; excercise it or SHUT UP!
Let's see if I can do this without screwing this up too much.
Wicca, as I understand it is simply the study of spiritual wisdom. Spells would be the practical equivalent of intercessory prayers.
Now, Harry Potter would be considered of the fantasy genre in literature. Fantasy being the surrealistic contemplation of a society. Among this would be Elves (Sidhe (sp?)), dwarves, gnomes, (gnarrin folk), trolls, etc. Things that don't exist or can not be proven to exist.
Where there seems to be confusion comes from the early xian church's view of Wicca/Witchcraft. The casting of spells that actually affect the physical world in a supernatural manner. Shapeshifting, causing fields to go fallow, etc....
Witchcraft of early xianity and movie fame has no bearing on the practice of Wiccans, Druids, etc. However, fundamentalist xians would probably like to see the Malleus Malificarum reinstated. They are trying to ban Wiccan ceremonies from the military.
To become a Wiccan (old stuff - not sure about current) a person was led into a small cave or underground structure where they spent the night and were rebirthed in the am and in the Wiccan tradition. Then celebrations were generally held around astronomical events, i.e. Full Moon, New Moon, Equinoxes, and Solstices. These were important times for farming communities. For example, my great-grandfather wouldn't plant potatoes until a certain time of year. The easiest way to measure this without a calendar would be the first full moon following the vernal equinox (or something similar). Even today, xianity follows this - the resurrection of christ is celebrated on the First Sunday following the first full moon following the vernal equinox. (Now, this just happens to be 40 days following the end of the xmas season with one week in ordinary time then the epiphany, then ash Wednesday. I can't recall whether there is another week in ordinary time in there or not.) The maypole is generally involved in easter celebrations in the church - which is actually an old Wiccan practice to *fertilize* the earth and a phallic symbol to boot. 12 virigns dancing around a pole (the 13th member of the group and a phallic symbol). The concept is that the 12 virgins transmit their energy/fertility to the pole where it goes into the field. That's why 13 is also considered unlucky - because wiccans used a 13 month calendar and 13 was/is an important number in their religious practices.
As Slater has pointed out Easter is a stolen holiday. Most xian religions involve pagan ritual in there celebrations - it was one way in which they converted pagans and one reason for the popularity of Mary (goddess) in the RC church. Also a reason Notre Dame in France has gargoyles on it - very pagan thing. The reason All Souls Day follows All Hallow's Eve.
The inclusion of pagan ceremony to attract pagans to mother church. People seem to forget this history of the many of their ceremonies. Ah well. They'd do better to learn something besides their bible too.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 12:41:27 [Permalink]
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Trish, I always laugh when I see the maypoles going up in the spring. Usually its a school class project. Hell, I ain't gonna tell them.
Quick question about the "here we go again" en re Harry Potter. If the fundies are raising this much hell about the Potter movie, what will they do on Dec 19 when Lord of the Rings comes out? While Harry Potter is generally considered a kiddies book, LOTR is considered a literary classic. Based on Norse mythology (a fun bunch, I might add) and Wagner's Ring cycle, it has just about everything that the fundies hate.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Trish
SFN Addict
USA
2102 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 12:47:30 [Permalink]
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quote:
Trish, I always laugh when I see the maypoles going up in the spring. Usually its a school class project. Hell, I ain't gonna tell them.
Quick question about the "here we go again" en re Harry Potter. If the fundies are raising this much hell about the Potter movie, what will they do on Dec 19 when Lord of the Rings comes out? While Harry Potter is generally considered a kiddies book, LOTR is considered a literary classic. Based on Norse mythology (a fun bunch, I might add) and Wagner's Ring cycle, it has just about everything that the fundies hate.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room.
Dunno, don't much care. Plan on seeing it, if it's ok for the kid - plan on taking her to see it. If it's not ok for the kid - then she'll have to wait.
It is by the goodness of God that in our country we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either of them. -Mark Twain |
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 13:16:42 [Permalink]
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I'm curious, has Caity read any of Tolkien's books? I was only a few years younger than her when I first read "The Hobbit". I was probably about 12-14 when I read the Fellowship for the first time. I don't think Potter or LOTR would be too intense for Caity, but she's a sensible girl.
Important!! If you're running a fever of 104F, don't read Tolkien. Man, those Black Riders chased me all night.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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Tim
SFN Regular
USA
775 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 13:32:30 [Permalink]
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Perhaps fundies don't want to be reminded that many of their important dates and stories find their historical birth in paganism. Doesn't the Christian Sabbath fall on the first day of the week where, I believe, this day was Emperor Constantine's for the worship of his sun god, rather than the last, where omnipotence has required rest? Don't the major stories of Genesis find roots in ancient myths from Babylon? Doesn't Christmas have some seasonal significance? I don't quite remember.
Maybe, they don't want competition, either. Sorcery IS okay if it is performed by a person annointed by God, and prophecy is one of the most important tenants of Christianity, but only if that prophesy is inspired directly by the hand of God.
What all this Harry Potter stuff comes down to is that if a child wants to see a movie, or read a book, or play a video game, or listen to a song that's the kid's own business as long as the parents give consent. I don't care if that medium shows us an image of a child riding on a broom, or Charlton Heston, Himself standing with His arms upraised, grasping a wooden staff, and ordering the seas to part. Amen...
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Lisa
SFN Regular
USA
1223 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 14:03:48 [Permalink]
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quote:
What all this Harry Potter stuff comes down to is that if a child wants to see a movie, or read a book, or play a video game, or listen to a song that's the kid's own business as long as the parents give consent. I don't care if that medium shows us an image of a child riding on a broom, or Charlton Heston, Himself standing with His arms upraised, grasping a wooden staff, and ordering the seas to part. Amen...
No, I think these fundie parents have a problem separating reality from fantasy entertainment. Kids in the target audience of these books have already discovered there's no Santa Claus or Easter Bunny. They enjoy the fantasy of Potter, but lump him in with the fat guy and the rabbit. I'd say its not the kids who have a problem, but the adults.
The best thing we can give our young friends is the gift of a good education and critical thinking skills. Seems simple, but there are people opposed to that.
Lisa
If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much room. |
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PhDreamer
SFN Regular
USA
925 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2001 : 14:20:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Perhaps fundies don't want to be reminded that many of their important dates and stories find their historical birth in paganism. Doesn't the Christian Sabbath fall on the first day of the week where, I believe, this day was Emperor Constantine's for the worship of his sun god, rather than the last, where omnipotence has required rest? Don't the major stories of Genesis find roots in ancient myths from Babylon? Doesn't Christmas have some seasonal significance? I don't quite remember.
Well, if you really want to know this stuff, Slater is the closest thing we have to an encyclopedia of religious epistemology around these parts. A few directed questions in the religion folder would do.
Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these things. - Silent Bob |
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