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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
 Posted - 02/07/2006 : 18:08:37 [Permalink]
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Bill wrote: Come on dude the morals of society are changing and evolving. They have evolved to the point where homo sex is now legal. And they will keep evolving until farmer Brown and trigger can consummate their love without shame.
You seem to be assuming that morals loosen over time. This is not the case. They change depending on circumstances, but that doesn't mean that they always get looser. Pedophilia is a great example of something that has become more strict. In modern society the age of consent and age of legal marriage has gotten older, not younger, and that has been because of changes in our education/career development (in agrarian societies you probably know all you need to know about life and work by the age of 8-12 years.) as well as changes in our understanding of human growth and development (we know today that adolescents are less mature than adults because of hormones, and we also know that children don't start reasoning until about the age of 8-10, and so on.)
I can think of no social trends that are heading toward the legalization of pedophilia or physical abuse of animals. As far as I can see, society in general is more fervently against both than ever. The only people supporting those things are the perpetrators of it. If you can point to signs that society is actually heading toward supporting such acts, please tell us what they are.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 02/07/2006 18:12:47 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 18:52:26 [Permalink]
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quote:
Bill wrote: Come on dude the morals of society are changing and evolving. They have evolved to the point where homo sex is now legal. And they will keep evolving until farmer Brown and trigger can consummate their love without shame.
Slavery is illegal, pedophelia is illegal, discrimination based on race, religion, or gender are illegal. So are, literally, hundreds of things that were considered the societal norm (and fully legal) within the last 300 years alone.
Only a complete moron would argue that our sense of societal morality is somehow degenerating.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 19:16:41 [Permalink]
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And marfknox, you going to respond to my request for a rational, defensible reason for genocide and infanticide in human cultures?
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 20:16:36 [Permalink]
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Dude, I didn't mean to not answer you. I just missed that post. I will respond here:
You wrote: In the most strict logical sense it is impossible for anything done by a human to not have a reason. Why did you kill that man? Because I wanted to. There, you have a reason.
In the more general sense of the word, which is what is being discussed here, it usually means "rational reason".
I don't get the distinction you are making. My dictionary is not helping me get the distinction. Are you claiming that genocide and infanticide is always a totally mindless act? Somehow I think if you ask the perpetrators, they will always have a rationale. Whether it is defensible is largely relative to their own knowledge, experience, and emotional blinders, like anything. If you really think killing your enemy's babies will make the world a better place, it is totally rational to kill your enemy's babies.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 02/07/2006 20:18:17 |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 21:11:44 [Permalink]
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quote:
I don't get the distinction you are making. My dictionary is not helping me get the distinction. Are you claiming that genocide and infanticide is always a totally mindless act? Somehow I think if you ask the perpetrators, they will always have a rationale. Whether it is defensible is largely relative to their own knowledge, experience, and emotional blinders, like anything. If you really think killing your enemy's babies will make the world a better place, it is totally rational to kill your enemy's babies.
The distinction is quite simple. There are reasons for every action a human being can consciously take. Not all reasons are rational. But in the context most people use the word "reason", they mean "rational reason".
I'm just asking you for a rational reason for genocide, since you indicated that there were reasons for it.
quote:
Somehow I think if you ask the perpetrators, they will always have a rationale.
Of course they will. But is it a rational rationale?
Of course, people almost never behave rationally, so maybe I am asking for to much to expect rational reasons for such things.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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nescafe
New Member
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 21:15:22 [Permalink]
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quote:
And without an objective standard all is relative.
This does not seem to bother most of the people on this forum, though. Perhaps they recognize that relativity does not mean that there is no way of establishing some sort of intersubjective standard, and measuring according to that? |
Insert witty saying here. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 21:18:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Bill wrote: Standard SFN game #278 "whine" Call the target a bigot homophobe for calling homo sex immoral. Then call him hate filled and intolerant SOB.
. So please don't attribute to all of us SFNers what one or two may have done. Stick to trying to convince us of your arguments.
I also don't think I've whined. So please don't attribute to all of us SFNers what one or two may have done. Stick to trying to convince us of your arguments.
(bill) Your right. If is tuff to remember who said what and when. I get to talking to to many people at one time and once the thread gets to be six pages I am sure I start puting everyone in one box. I must remember that SFN is more then one person so many view points will be given but not shared by all. Your point is taken and I will try to keep the conversations seperated. Thank you for your understanding. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 21:26:45 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by nescafe
quote:
And without an objective standard all is relative.
This does not seem to bother most of the people on this forum, though. Perhaps they recognize that relativity does not mean that there is no way of establishing some sort of intersubjective standard, and measuring according to that?
But in a materialistic universe the question always remains, who gets to establish the standard and why do they (however they are) get to establish the standard? |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 21:28:08 [Permalink]
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Thank you for your understanding.
Thank you for yours. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 21:36:47 [Permalink]
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Dude,
Any action is rational if the reason stated by the doer doesn't contradict with the doer's stated worldview. For example, is it rational or irrational to smoke ciggarettes? Well, it is irrational if the smoker holds that their health is more valuable than the high they get off the ciggarettes. But if the smoker honestly believes that the high is worth the potential health damage, it is rational to smoke. In the case of both the Nazi and Rwanda genocides, as well as the Greek infanticide, from the racist worldview of the perpetrators, their actions were perfectly consistant. Even if their beliefs about reality were wrong (obviously the Nazis overall plan failed, and was thus, flawed), they couldn't have known beforehand that they were wrong.
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 02/07/2006 22:24:15 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 21:54:51 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
quote:
Bill wrote: Come on dude the morals of society are changing and evolving. They have evolved to the point where homo sex is now legal. And they will keep evolving until farmer Brown and trigger can consummate their love without shame.
Slavery is illegal, pedophelia is illegal, discrimination based on race, religion, or gender are illegal. So are, literally, hundreds of things that were considered the societal norm (and fully legal) within the last 300 years alone.
Only a complete moron would argue that our sense of societal morality is somehow degenerating.
Only a complete moron would argue that our sense of societal morality is somehow degenerating.
(bill) Funny, no lack of wars on planet earth of late. We got plenty of genocide to go around. Lot's of rape. Murder is of no short these days. Gov's cheat their people all the time. Man inflicts pain and suffering on his fellow man every day in every country in mass. Hitler, Stallon, pal pot, Rowanda, Bosnia, Cambodia, Colombine. We just came out of the bloodiest century this world has ever seen. We have the constant and growing threat of nuclear arms in the hands of many nations and on the black market for who knows to buy. The killings fields of Iraq, the 1000's of deaths in the Iraq war. Our planet has wars all over all the time. Insurance co. refuse to pay and let people die. etc... etc... etc... etc... I could go on and on. Only a complete moron would argue that our sense of societal morality is somehow progressing. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 22:14:42 [Permalink]
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Bill wrote: Funny, no lack of wars on planet earth of late. We got plenty of genocide to go around. Lot's of rape. Murder is of no short these days. Gov's cheat their people all the time. Man inflicts pain and suffering on his fellow man every day in every country in mass. Hitler, Stallon, pal pot, Rowanda, Bosnia, Cambodia, Colombine. We just came out of the bloodiest century this world has ever seen. We have the constant and growing threat of nuclear arms in the hands of many nations and on the black market for who knows to buy. The killings fields of Iraq, the 1000's of deaths in the Iraq war. Our planet has wars all over all the time. Insurance co. refuse to pay and let people die. etc... etc... etc... etc... I could go on and on. Only a complete moron would argue that our sense of societal morality is somehow progressing.
Nobody here has argued that our sense of societal morality is progressing. We have all suggested that societal morality changes over time.
Saying this past century has been the bloodiest really doesn't carry much meaning when you realize the population boom. You have to take the proportion of the population into consideration. If you have two sparsely populated tribes warring with each other, and they stop each battle after one person is killed, they seem quite peaceful compared with us moderns who kill thousands, sometimes millions in a single military attack. But if that village only has 50 people in it, they just lost 2% of their population. We could have been way more peaceful in the 1900's and still been the bloodiest century ever simply because we had so many more people than any other century. So you are going to have to produce some historical census info to prove that we've actually become more violent.
Also, technological advances in weaponry do not reflect moral degradation. Are you trying to say that if people in the middle ages had nuclear arms they wouldn't have used them against their enemies? Just as we have used these horrible weapons, we've also developed whole political entitites that fight against the use of weapons of mass destruction.
Corruption and war thrived long before the modern age, the invasions of the Mongols, the crusades, human sacrifice taken to a new bloody level by the Aztecs, the cannibalistic Maori, the Catholic church getting peasants to pay indulgences to reduce their time in purgatory, etc... etc...etc...I could go on and on. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 02/07/2006 22:15:14 |
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Dr. Mabuse
Septic Fiend
Sweden
9691 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 22:59:47 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by nescafe
quote:
And without an objective standard all is relative.
This does not seem to bother most of the people on this forum, though. Perhaps they recognize that relativity does not mean that there is no way of establishing some sort of intersubjective standard, and measuring according to that?
Indeed you are correct.
Welcome to Skeptic Friends Network nescafe! |
Dr. Mabuse - "When the going gets tough, the tough get Duct-tape..."
Dr. Mabuse whisper.mp3
"Equivocation is not just a job, for a creationist it's a way of life..." Dr. Mabuse
Support American Troops in Iraq:
Send them unarmed civilians for target practice..
Collateralmurder. |
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2006 : 23:56:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Posted by marfknox:
Any action is rational if the reason stated by the doer doesn't contradict with the doer's stated worldview. For example, is it rational or irrational to smoke ciggarettes? Well, it is irrational if the smoker holds that their health is more valuable than the high they get off the ciggarettes. But if the smoker honestly believes that the high is worth the potential health damage, it is rational to smoke. In the case of both the Nazi and Rwanda genocides, as well as the Greek infanticide, from the racist worldview of the perpetrators, their actions were perfectly consistant. Even if their beliefs about reality were wrong (obviously the Nazis overall plan failed, and was thus, flawed), they couldn't have known beforehand that they were wrong.
Yes, they could have. There is a very simple test. Some call it the "golden rule". It has been around for a very very long time.
Its a damn shame that most people don't live by it.
quote:
Bill wrote: Funny, no lack of wars on planet earth of late. We got plenty of genocide to go around. Lot's of rape. Murder is of no short these days. Gov's cheat their people all the time. Man inflicts pain and suffering on his fellow man every day in every country in mass. Hitler, Stallon, pal pot, Rowanda, Bosnia, Cambodia, Colombine. We just came out of the bloodiest century this world has ever seen. We have the constant and growing threat of nuclear arms in the hands of many nations and on the black market for who knows to buy. The killings fields of Iraq, the 1000's of deaths in the Iraq war. Our planet has wars all over all the time. Insurance co. refuse to pay and let people die. etc... etc... etc... etc... I could go on and on. Only a complete moron would argue that our sense of societal morality is somehow progressing.
Bill, when you find some statistics to back up your befuddled claims, let me know. As predicted, you refuse to provide evidence to any of your previous claims and are off on some new tangent.
I hate to break it to you, but in industrialized western countries there is less crime (per capita) today than there was 20 years ago. This has been an ongoing trend for the last century or so, with variations and a noticible spike from the mid-1970s to mid-1980s. The trend is currently moving down for crime rates. Are there crimes commited? Sure. Probably always will be. Despite the impression that the 24hour news cycle gives, with their endless coverage of a few horrible crimes, you and your children are basically as safe as anyone has ever been in this country, and far safer than you were in 1980.
http://bjsdata.ojp.usdoj.gov/dataonline/Search/Crime/State/statebystaterun.cfm?stateid=52
quote:
We just came out of the bloodiest century this world has ever seen.
Where are your statistics to support that claim? What evidence? I know it is futile to ask you for evidence, but call me stubborn. As long as you keep making wild-ass claims like that, and providing no evidentiary basis for your claims, the kindest response you will recieve here is to be laughed at.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2006 : 04:33:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Bill, when you find some statistics to back up your befuddled claims, let me know. As predicted, you refuse to provide evidence to any of your previous claims and are off on some new tangent.
Forget it, Dude. I've asked for reference a couple of times and none has been forthcoming, nor, if he holds true to form, will there be.
Bill is using, or trying to use, a variation on the "Gish Gallop" style of debate: confound the opponent with a tangled blizzard claims, facts, query, straw men, non sequiter, and so forth. The following question is a classic example:
quote:
But in a materialistic universe the question always remains, who gets to establish the standard and why do they (however they are) get to establish the standard?
Looking back, this turkey has been repeated, in various forms, ad nauseum throughout Bill's discourse, even though it has been addressed several times by several prople. It's amusing, albeit becoming increasingly tedious -- sort'a like watching one of those toy water-drinking birds that seem to have some sort of mysterious life as they dip their beaks into a glass (I used to know how those worked, but have forgotten).
Uh, Bill, social structures are not "Who." Social structures are "What." And yet again: social structures are that which decides the moral codes of the individuals within them, whether all of those individuals like it or not.
Either that, or God done it. Did God done it, Bill? If so, yeesh! What a fuckup! 
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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