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Kil
Evil Skeptic
USA
13477 Posts |
 Posted - 02/24/2006 : 17:08:17 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by beskeptigal
...But I don't think Americans rebuilding it will do anything to impact the situation in a positive way.
I dunno. Considering that the Iranian President, a Shiite, blamed the US for the attack, it just might take some of the wind out of their sails… |
Uncertainty may make you uncomfortable. Certainty makes you ridiculous.
Why not question something for a change?
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BaccaBerri
New Member
12 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2006 : 13:24:46 [Permalink]
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alright here's my take.....No governing body should be paying for anything religious of any kind it's that simple, unless of course they are spending equal money on each and every religion within the area of which they govern. So basically unless the government wants to spend money to help build and keep running builidings for witches, pagans, satanists, occultists and everyone else no money should be spent on any relgion. As for the idea that because this place has some historical signifigance that it makes it ok, well a new one will no longer have that same signifigance so the point is basically mute.
Also there is comments about political leaders speaking of their personal religious choices. well That is all fine and dandy except they use those as a tool rather then a belief, and if you don't think they do ask yourself if a pagan would ever be elected if they came out and said that.....the point is not that these people have personal beliefs the fact is that they use thier religious beliefs and ideas to impose legislation onto the masses and that is not right. As anyone in the US knows the guy marriage and abortion issues are being fought by people who have a religious agenda and belief with no thought or care of the fact that there are actual people that want these things.
to me that is the problem....sorry if these points were already made but i sort of just responded lol |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2006 : 14:26:27 [Permalink]
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BaccaBerri wrote:quote:
alright here's my take.....No governing body should be paying for anything religious of any kind it's that simple, unless of course they are spending equal money on each and every religion within the area of which they govern.
What do you mean “equal money”. In New Orleans, churches of different Christian sects and probably Jewish buildings were destroyed, and funding is being given out in proportion to what was destroyed. But only around 4% of Americans are Jewish and 25% are Catholic, so obviously it makes no sense to give equal amount to both groups. Did you mean in proportion to? Also, in the case of this mosque, it was the only thing destroyed in that disaster, so obviously it is the only thing that would get the funding.
BaccaBerri wrote:quote:
So basically unless the government wants to spend money to help build and keep running builidings for witches, pagans, satanists, occultists and everyone else no money should be spent on any relgion.
Keep running? We're talking about rebuilding after a disaster. The government doesn't just hand out money to any private institutions to maintain their buildings, unless they are serving some secular purpose, and then the money is explicitly meant for that. The only violation of church-state separation is when money is going explicitly to promote the religion.
BaccaBerri wrote:quote:
As for the idea that because this place has some historical signifigance that it makes it ok, well a new one will no longer have that same signifigance so the point is basically mute.
Won't have the same significance!? Of course it will! The actual space is sacred because it is a burial ground for important religious figures. It isn't like the explosion caused the bodies of those Imans to bleep out of existence.
BaccaBerri wrote:quote:
Also there is comments about political leaders speaking of their personal religious choices. well That is all fine and dandy except they use those as a tool rather then a belief,
Since we cannot read the minds of politicians, we cannot know which of them are genuine and which are lying for the sake of getting ahead politically when they speak of their religion. The constitution gives them the right to do it regardless.
BaccaBerri wrote:quote:
and if you don't think they do ask yourself if a pagan would ever be elected if they came out and said that.....
That is a problem with our culture having serious religion biases. It is not a problem that we can solve by taking away the religious freedom of politicians.
BaccaBerri wrote:quote:
As anyone in the US knows the guy marriage and abortion issues are being fought by people who have a religious agenda and belief with no thought or care of the fact that there are actual people that want these things.
Actually, a |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
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| Edited by - marfknox on 02/25/2006 14:29:16 |
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BaccaBerri
New Member
12 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2006 : 15:04:16 [Permalink]
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perhaps it is not a cure however if you were to take away a religious persons ability to try and force their opinions on others there would be a lot less moral issues spoken of. My morals are just fine and the bible is the last place i would look for that. When people start looking for money to replace religious buildings it is wrong. If it is a religious place then that religion should be paying to rebuild it. If they can't afford to then oh well that's their problem.
You stated that it is important to rebuild and will have just as much meaning because its on sacred ground, well then there is no building needed the land itself should be enough. The idea that money is spent on rebuilding things like this in any way is sad to me. People don't like seeing past the literal perhaps but the basic point is that if it is a place of worship then money should not be allocated to supporting it, by rebuilding it that is what is being done.
More to the point should be this, why is the US going to pay to rebuild anything in Iraq? sorry to say but if they want to blow up their own stuff then have to it let them rebuild, are we going to pay to rebuild the churches that have been burnt down recently? if not why not, it's basically the same thing is it not? |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2006 : 15:18:12 [Permalink]
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BaccaBerri wrote: quote:
perhaps it is not a cure however if you were to take away a religious persons ability to try and force their opinions on others there would be a lot less moral issues spoken of.
I am not arguing against church-state separation. You are the one suggesting that it go farther than it should as spelled out by the letter of the law. I am saying that church-state separation is only one piece of the solution in the culture war. That is what I meant by “not a cure-all”.
quote:
people start looking for money to replace religious buildings it is wrong. If it is a religious place then that religion should be paying to rebuild it. If they can't afford to then oh well that's their problem.
You have yet to respond to the situation of government funds in New Orleans. Do you think those church's should be left out in the cold too?
BaccaBerri wrote: quote:
More to the point should be this, why is the US going to pay to rebuild anything in Iraq? sorry to say but if they want to blow up their own stuff then have to it let them rebuild, are we going to pay to rebuild the churches that have been burnt down recently? if not why not, it's basically the same thing is it not?
It is hugely different! We are trying to stop a civil war from breaking out. But I suppose the interest of preventing thousands of lost lives isn't as important as making sure nobody thinks the United States is promoting Shi'ite Islam – because, you know, the USA's favoritism toward Islam is getting so out of control, one would think we're just about to establish sharia in the USA. Get out your burka!
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"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
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BaccaBerri
New Member
12 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2006 : 15:28:28 [Permalink]
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do I think that the US should pay to rebuild churches in New Orleans? no I do not, the churches should be rebuilt by individual donations. When we were flooded there is one church imparticular that the members spent hours while the water was rising to protect the church, it didn't work. Today that flooded building is still standing as is one just like it atop a hill beside it. The government didn't rebuild that church, why should they do it in New Orleans?
The idea of trying to prevent civil war is fine, if that's what you think we are trying to do. Do you propose we rebuild everything that is destroyed? Do you think that the US should be putting everything back up that is being blown up in Iraq? what about in other countries? should we do it everywhere that there is civil unrest? you do it for all or you do it for none. It may sound harsh but there are enough problems within the US enough people here who need help that to hand over money for something like this is just wrong. |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2006 : 16:03:29 [Permalink]
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| BaccaBerri, you aren't even talking about a separation of church-state issue anymore. Now you are debating what tax dollars should be spent on in general. That's changing the subject. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
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BaccaBerri
New Member
12 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2006 : 16:05:19 [Permalink]
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| they are very much the same thing. unless you no longer pay taxes to the government |
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geo berri
New Member
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2006 : 15:22:04 [Permalink]
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| I found out today that the press is reporting that the mosque was blown up by the terrorists. Is this a spin to put the blame elsewhere or is this uninformed reporting? As for rebuilding a mosque simply to keep the peace that is ridiculous, especially if we had nothing to do with the damage in the first place. So would the rebuilding of churches in Louisianna and Mississippi for the simple fact that many tax paying citizens have lost their homes and possessions. This is what our government needs to focus on not rebuilding houses of worship. They should be rebuilt by the congregations as they were built in the first place. Our people need to get their lives back and they have every right to expect the government to help them. |
Throw open the windows of your life and let the winds of knowledge blow through your mind, geo |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2006 : 15:31:22 [Permalink]
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| If the government is helping other private businesses and individuals in New Orleans rebuild, then by refusing only "houses of worship" aren't they then discriminated against religious groups? |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
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geo berri
New Member
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2006 : 15:40:55 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
If the government is helping other private businesses and individuals in New Orleans rebuild, then by refusing only "houses of worship" aren't they then discriminated against religious groups?
Not at all. The businesses are tax paying entities the churches are not. Why is it so necessary for us to rebuild them anyway? Congregations build churches not governments. Besides like I said we need to restore the homes of the people who live there and get the show on the road. It's been 6 months and the government needs to get up off their asses and get busy. |
Throw open the windows of your life and let the winds of knowledge blow through your mind, geo |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2006 : 16:53:16 [Permalink]
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geo berri wrote: quote:
The businesses are tax paying entities the churches are not.
So, what, should nonprofits also not get rebuilt? I think you need a better reason than that they just don't pay taxes. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
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geo berri
New Member
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2006 : 19:36:20 [Permalink]
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I thought I gave very good reasons other than just the taxes. Again, churches are built by congregations not governments.
Regardless of the separation of church & state issue the churches and non profits should be among the last things we should spend our tax dollars on. Lets get people into adequit housing before all else. |
Throw open the windows of your life and let the winds of knowledge blow through your mind, geo |
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moakley
SFN Regular
USA
1888 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2006 : 19:47:41 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by geo berri
I found out today that the press is reporting that the mosque was blown up by the terrorists. ...
Doesn't surprise me since one of their goals is to destabilize the country. What better way than to keep the sunnis and the shittes at each others throats. The terrorists have also been pretty indescriminant in who they target. |
Life is good
Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned. -Anonymous |
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 02/26/2006 : 20:16:25 [Permalink]
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geo berri quote:
I thought I gave very good reasons other than just the taxes. Again, churches are built by congregations not governments.
Regardless of the separation of church & state issue the churches and non profits should be among the last things we should spend our tax dollars on. Lets get people into adequit housing before all else.
Houses and businesses are more typically built by private companies and individuals, not governments. What does the fact that church's are not originally built by government have to do with whether they should recieve disaster relief? The government is handing out money to rebuild a city that has had a serious natural disaster. The money being handed out is for the whole community, and whether you like it or not, churches are important and beneficial parts of many communities. So are nonprofits. Both should be built along side with the houses, businesses, schools, hospitals, and anything else that is a legitimate part of the community. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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