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THoR
Skeptic Friend
USA
151 Posts |
 Posted - 03/18/2006 : 17:15:34 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Dude
THoR said:
quote:
I pose my ideas as just that, an alternate perspective
You mean to say you present unevidenced nonsense that can't even withstand minimal scrutiny.
Still waiting for a description of those "me" particles.
Show me a physical representation of sqrt -1, theoretical particles which pop into and out of existence, send me a bucket of dark matter and let me see the match that lit the big bang. You've been SNOWED by BS like emergent properties. What dont jibe, don't pass.
Want a 'me' particle, take off your body, I'll prove it if YOU have the cajones |
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Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 06:42:35 [Permalink]
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I don't know anyone that has no sacred cows. I think skeptics attempt to rid themselves of their sacred cows. I also think that some people who think they're skeptics, are just spouting information about their favorite sacred cow. I think we all do that from time to time.
http://www.skeptic.com/about_us/discover_skepticism.html
'Skepticism is a provisional approach to claims. It is the application of reason to any and all ideas — no sacred cows allowed. In other words, skepticism is a method, not a position. Ideally, skeptics do not go into an investigation closed to the possibility that a phenomenon might be real or that a claim might be true. When we say we are “skeptical,” we mean that we must see compelling evidence before we believe.'
Which I think leads us to Kil's ideas about whether or not religious people can be called 'skeptics.' Skeptics about what? Can one be skeptical about religion and still be religious? If religion means quote:
Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship,
then I wonder what part of that is skeptical. If they mean skeptical about other things, if not religion, then maybe. It's a hard thing to judge, I suppose, but if one's life is based on something that's squarely against reason, then why would one ever think to call oneself a skeptic?
It would seem to me that "belief" in something requires one to give up reason, not embrace it. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 07:39:10 [Permalink]
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Me, I am not at all firm in my beliefs. After all, evidence could turn up that would completely refute them. Thus, I don't consider myself to have any 'beliefs' as such; only confirmed observations.
Never forget: it was once firmly 'believed' that rotting meat spontaneously produced fly maggots. The excellent Dr. Pasteur put paid to that one.
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 08:09:09 [Permalink]
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| The sun doesn't need me to "believe" that it will rise tomorrow. In all probability, I suspect that I'll see it again tomorrow, and after I die, it will continue to do whatever it does, but I have no reason to think that that is a certainty or anything to "believe" in. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 11:17:49 [Permalink]
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Originally, skepticism questions all claims of ultimate knowledge, including reason and science. However, skeptics today are likely to acknowledge that reason and science can allow us to know things about the natural world as it seems to be experienced commonly by all human beings.
Something related to this from Doubt: A History by Jennifer Hecht:
"Skepticism becomes irrelevant as soon as you stop asking how we can know the real truth about the anthill or the atom, and just ask what we can determine about phenomena as they appear to us. That's a major answer to the Skeptical question and it lets us out through a wormhole in an otherwise claustrophobic little corner of thought."
So this explains why the Skeptics here and in the Skeptics Society embrace reason and science and still consider themselves to be skeptics.
Also, Gorgo wrote: quote:
Can one be skeptical about religion and still be religious?
I don't see why not. Or maybe the better way to term such people is "religious freethinkers", rather than "skeptics". We see some whole denominations (Unitarians, United Church of Christ) and almost every major denomination of Christianity being split to some degree (Methodists, Episcopalians, even Catholics) on the issue of being dogmatic about their theology in the public/political sphere, or regarding their theology as personal and non-objective. I'll give the example of my mom. She is a practicing Roman Catholic, and she personally believes abortion to be morally wrong. However, she doesn't think her religiously-based morality should be imposed on the whole of secular society because her beliefs are personal and subjective. So she is pro-choice and nonjudgemental of people who get abortions. I've given this example to some fundamentalist Christians, and they've insulted my mom as having "shallow faith". I respond with saying that her faith is stronger than theirs because it isn't totally blind faith. There are many similar freethinking Christians; people like them helped found the Humanist philosophy. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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| Edited by - marfknox on 03/19/2006 11:19:39 |
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 18:28:28 [Permalink]
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| Your abortion story has nothing to do with being skeptical about belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 20:17:11 [Permalink]
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Gorgo wrote: quote:
Your abortion story has nothing to do with being skeptical about belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
Well actually it does. There is clearly a difference between religious believers who want to impose their beliefs on the whole of society, and religious believers who promote pluralism.
We can all agree on certain things. We can agree that the sky is blue. We can agree that 2+2=4. So let's just call that sort of stuff "knowledge". And then there is stuff like souls, ghosts, gods, that groups of people believe because of a variety of similar inclinations or subjective experiences or whatever. Let's call such things "beliefs". A person can hold beliefs and at the same time acknowledge they might be wrong. A person can also hold beliefs and at the same time agree that only knowledge, and not belief, should be applied regarding political issues for the whole society. Like I said, there are plenty of such believers within major denominations of Christianity, as well as Reform Jews and Unitarians that do exactly this. Those believers have religious beliefs but they abide by a Humanistic philosophy. Therefore they have some degree of skepticism about their beliefs. |
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
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Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 22:01:09 [Permalink]
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THoR said:
quote:
Show me a physical representation of sqrt -1, theoretical particles which pop into and out of existence, send me a bucket of dark matter and let me see the match that lit the big bang. You've been SNOWED by BS like emergent properties. What dont jibe, don't pass.
Want a 'me' particle, take off your body, I'll prove it if YOU have the cajones
All the things you listed have atleast a mathematical description.
You are just shitting out of your mouth in response to the request that you provide atleast the same for your "me" particle, because you can't.
As for emergent properties, you clearly fail to comprehend that we are not using (or implying) any ontology when we use the phrase. It is entirely epistemilogical.
Your deliberate conflation (or inability to comprehend the difference) of the two is fairly obvious.
Your refusal to answer the question (yet again) is noted and your unevidenced assertion is once again rejected.
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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
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Snake
SFN Addict
USA
2511 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 00:23:33 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Gorgo
I also think that some people who think they're skeptics, are just spouting information about their favorite sacred cow.
Right on, Rev! Sir, you are a genius. That's exactly what I was trying to say also.
He who is without sin....and all that.
Humans are not boxes, they are bags. No one is a stright line.
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Gorgo
SFN Die Hard
USA
5310 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 04:02:43 [Permalink]
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quote:
Or maybe the better way to term such people is "religious freethinkers", rather than "skeptics".
Maybe it's better to leave it here and agree. There is a difference between a skeptic, and one who is determined to be an enemy of reality. The rest is a matter of degree. |
I know the rent is in arrears
The dog has not been fed in years
It's even worse than it appears
But it's alright-
Jerry Garcia
Robert Hunter
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| Edited by - Gorgo on 03/20/2006 04:03:49 |
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 04:10:37 [Permalink]
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This whole "me particle" stuff got me thinking of the "Scarlet Pimpernel" for some reason.
He seeks it here,/ He seeks it there,/ That THoR seeks it everywhere./ Is it in heaven,/ Or is it in hell?/ His own elusive Pimpernel.
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METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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sts60
Skeptic Friend
141 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 14:31:40 [Permalink]
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Show me a physical representation of sqrt -1,
OK. A sine wave, such as that plotting the amplitude of alternating current, is basically a plot of the e to the power of (sqrt -1) * frequency * time. You can't really do electrical power engineering without complex numbers.
theoretical particles which pop into and out of existence,
The Caisimir effect is real, and has been physically demonstrated. It's due to just such quantum fluctuations.
send me a bucket of dark matter
The proof is not in handing you a bucket of something, but rather in whether the predictions match observed effects. Do you deny the existence of antiprotons because you can't see them by squinting really hard? While "dark matter" is not so well established, there is a theoretical and empirical basis for it. Waving your hands doesn't serve as an effective rebuttal.
and let me see the match that lit the big bang.
The Big Bang is just what you get when you run the movie of observed properties of the Universe backwards. There are viable candidates for the "match", some of which have received increasing support by observational results such as recent analysis of WMAP data. Again, it's not established fact, but it is good theory, and you can't simply wave your hands with a Reaganesque humorism and make it go away.
You've been SNOWED by BS like emergent properties.
Are you really challenging the very existence of emergent properties? I haven't followed your earlier posts, so if that is not the case, sorry. But emergent properties are directly observed in fields as disparate as physics, chemistry, biology, systems engineering, and political science. Not BS, but fact.
What dont jibe, don't pass.
Jibing means more than directly observing some macroscopic object.
Want a 'me' particle, take off your body, I'll prove it if YOU have the cajones
First, you need to define what a "me" particle is, what mass, charge, spin, etc. you expect it to have. Then you need to define exactly what it means to "take off" one's body. Unless you can do that, your statement is meaningless, except perhaps from a philosophical standpoint. |
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H. Humbert
SFN Die Hard
USA
4574 Posts |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 14:36:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by sts60
Want a 'me' particle, take off your body, I'll prove it if YOU have the cajones
First, you need to define what a "me" particle is, what mass, charge, spin, etc. you expect it to have. Then you need to define exactly what it means to "take off" one's body. Unless you can do that, your statement is meaningless, except perhaps from a philosophical standpoint.
Indeed, wouldn't it be easier to remove the me particle from a body?
Hey, THoR, which molecule in my body can I remove so that I cease to be me?
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"A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true." --Demosthenes
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool." --Richard P. Feynman
"Face facts with dignity." --found inside a fortune cookie |
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