|
|
|
Dude
SFN Die Hard
USA
6891 Posts |
 Posted - 03/15/2006 : 21:28:27 [Permalink]
|
Bill said:
quote:
None of us weather rich or poor, strong or weak, can escape the reality of an ultimately meaningless existence if all existence, and our complete identity, is annihilated at the death of this body.
Yeah, because your religious fantasy is right and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong...
You truly are a small minded bigot aren't you bill?
|
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong.
-- Thomas Jefferson
"god :: the last refuge of a man with no answers and no argument." - G. Carlin
Hope, n.
The handmaiden of desperation; the opiate of despair; the illegible signpost on the road to perdition. ~~ da filth |
|
 |
|
|
marfknox
SFN Die Hard
USA
3739 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2006 : 22:03:55 [Permalink]
|
Bill wrote: quote:
None of us weather rich or poor, strong or weak, can escape the reality of an ultimately meaningless existence if all existence, and our complete identity, is annihilated at the death of this body. My hope is an eternal hope as I am confident that this world is not my home. I know that the struggles I face in this life are not all there is to my existence. I have a hope that transcends the grave and death it's very self. Without eternal hope all existence is left ultimately meaningless. Hence millionaire rock stars who commit suicide. Sports stars who throw away a rich career in sports over drug addiction. etc.. If they have no eternal hope then all is left meaningless and 5 million dollars can not even give them hope, only the power to medicate ones self from the reality of this existence. So remember that next time you see some big star crash and burn and wonder how anyone, who had it all, how could they just throw it all away like that?
Way to simplify and piss all over the richness of the human experience, Bill! It never astounds me how some Christians basically use their theology to escape responsibility for this life here and now. You must really despise being alive. Personally, I'm going to enjoy the view while I'm around.
|
"Too much certainty and clarity could lead to cruel intolerance" -Karen Armstrong
Check out my art store: http://www.marfknox.etsy.com
|
| Edited by - marfknox on 03/16/2006 01:00:19 |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 01:59:35 [Permalink]
|
Hmmm. I can see one direction this might take, and I'm gonna give that drivel the chop right now!
Pascal's Wager: quote:
The Wager can be stated by the following explanation provided by Pascal in the Pensees--
"God is, or He is not. But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up...Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose. This is one point settled. But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is."
To Pascal, God was the Christian God of the Bible. The Bible provides information about the Christian God but not proof for God. Should you believe in this God? In his Wager, Pascal provides an analytical process for a person to evaluate his options in regard to belief in the Christian God. The person who has no more information than that which he finds in the Bible would find himself facing the following possibilities:
You may believe in God, and if God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
You may believe in God, and if God doesn't exist, your loss is finite and therefore negligible.
You may not believe in God, and if God doesn't exist, your gain is finite and therefore negligible.
You may not believe in God, and if God exists, you will go to hell: your loss is infinite.
From these possibilities, and the principles of statistics, Pascal deduced that it would be better to believe in God unconditionally. It is a classic application of game theory to itemize options and payoffs and is valid within its assumptions. After starting with only that information found in the Bible, the person can then be given additional information to encompass all the knowledge that man has assessed and on re-evaluating his position, he will reach the same conclusion; it would be better to believe in the God of the Bible unconditionally.
Now, before we all go off the deep end damning Blaise Pascal and all of his works, this last link is his history. He was one of the premier scientists of his day, until he went into the religious version of Hansen's disease. But I digress....
The way I read it; his gambit is false in that, if there is a god as described, that god would surely be smart enough to know when some mortal is merely paying lip service to it in the hope of covering all bases. So I would gain nothing by my false worship -- indeed, I would still lose, bigtime.
And if there is no god as described, I would lose quite a bit by my worship. Time in church when I could have been fishing, tithes and donations, and so forth, would amount to a quite a lot over a lifetime.
Back to the article: quote:
Before entering into the criticisms of the Wager, it is only fair to note, as is less widely known, that the wager was never intended to be a basis or reason for faith. The wager is found in an apologetic (his Pensées) aimed at those who didn't consider the question of God worth considering. The wager had the express intention of showing the "happy agnostic" the value and probable necessity of considering the question of God.
Pascal has been severely criticized, for example by Voltaire. Some criticisms are summarized below:
There follows a series of remarks, one of which is this: quote:
Measure Theory
The wager assumes that God is possible, and hence there is a non-zero probability of him existing. But this does not work all the time. For instance, in a measure theory conception of probability, one can have infinitely (uncountably) many possibilities, all of which have probability zero. (E.g., choosing a random real number between 0 and 1, all numbers cannot have positive probability or the probabilities sum to more than 1.)
It is not clear what is meant when "probability" or "chance" is said in the context of something possibly existing, but probability cannot be used as defined in mathematics to justify the wager as is, since God being possible does not mean that God's existence has positive probability.
The Gambit in interesting is it not? And entirely false.
I'll wrap this up with a question: Who am I, and who are you, to tell someone else of sound mind what they can and cannot do with their own person? Does that not assume an entirely unwarranted arrogance, to insist that others follow any of the beliefs of either of us, substantiated or not?
The minute cluster of cells is, by it's very definition, a pseudo-parasite until it becomes viable (and, in time, might become an all-too-real parasite  ).
Abortion is a choice, a very private choice. It is of concern only to the woman. Her family might be involved, but still, it's her body and thus the final word on it is her's alone -- rabid preachers and other, hysterical Bible-thumpers need not apply.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
|
| Edited by - filthy on 03/16/2006 02:10:36 |
|
|
|
JohnOAS
SFN Regular
Australia
800 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 03:09:58 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Your dilemma is that you have no hope for eternal life. We all might not share the same struggle but I agree with H. when he says: “I myself have physical disorders--I think we all do to some degree” I will go one further. I think, when honest, we all can agree that everyone struggles in this life. If not with a physical challenge then maybe mental. My point is we all struggle to make it through this journey we call life. If your hope is a naturalistic hope then no wonder you have suicidal thoughts. For you this cold and dark world is all there is, and then you die. This meaningless existence is shared by all who have no eternal hope.
I find the common held monotheistic alternative just as meaningless.
We are all part of some cosmic "experiment" created by some arrogant deity who already knows the outcome anyway. We exist to worship "it" alone, and whether or not we're born into a situation where we have a fighting chance to learn about this malignant creator and are somehow convinced it's worthy of our worship, is out of our control. A life of suffering, be it 70 seconds or 70 years, what does it matter compared to eternity with the infinitely vain one? What does it matter indeed.
Lets have a closer look at the setup of this fascinating game as understood by many (I admit not all) monotheists:
The rules are distributed throughout a book. It's a very old book. It cannot be interpreted literally unless you are willing to suspend rationalty in order to ignore the contradictions within. The book has been added to, otherwise edited, copied and translated through several languages over the centuries, some of them dead and/or not easily translated into other forms. The penalty for misinterpreting the rules and thereby living your life outside them is eternal suffering. If there is such a creator of the rules (and let's be honest, there is SFA real evidence to believe that there is), it can take a flying fuck as far as I'm concerned, it'll take a miracle of greater than old testament proportions to get any worship from me.
The "dilemma" Bill, is how to deal with people who believe, or even worse, evangelise this excrement.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
VH1 does the documentary on older bands I think called “behind the music” Spends an hour covering the rise of different bands such as Metalica, Def Lepard, AC/DC, OZZY, Milli Vanili, Run DMC, Vanilla Ice, etc… etc…
This is off topic, but if anyone wants a good read about how tough new musical talent can have it, check out this article by Steve Albini. It's certainly not a neutral, objective article, but very enlightening, not to mention entertaining in my opinion. |
John's just this guy, you know. |
| Edited by - JohnOAS on 03/16/2006 03:17:32 |
|
|
|
Starman
SFN Regular
Sweden
1613 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 04:12:41 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by verso
That's why I don't believe in making choices for other people - inculding mentally handicapped children.
But when it comes to their parents and families, you seem to be willing do this.
Also the issue is still about aborting fetuses, not children or kids. |
"Any religion that makes a form of torture into an icon that they worship seems to me a pretty sick sort of religion quite honestly"
-- Terry Jones |
|
|
|
pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 05:18:57 [Permalink]
|
If the religious types are correct, then the aborted ones go straight to heaven, right?
So what's all the fuss? They are far better off than you or I, since heaven is supposed to be so much nicer and we aren't allowed to use suicide to get there. We, the Manipulated Dead, have to keep trudging through this life, put up with misery and disease, and maybe (just maybe) die in our sleep.
Unless you don't believe that babies that die before the appropriate programming do go to heaven... |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
|
| Edited by - pleco on 03/16/2006 05:21:46 |
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 05:39:03 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by marfknox
Bill wrote: quote:
None of us weather rich or poor, strong or weak, can escape the reality of an ultimately meaningless existence if all existence, and our complete identity, is annihilated at the death of this body. My hope is an eternal hope as I am confident that this world is not my home. I know that the struggles I face in this life are not all there is to my existence. I have a hope that transcends the grave and death it's very self. Without eternal hope all existence is left ultimately meaningless. Hence millionaire rock stars who commit suicide. Sports stars who throw away a rich career in sports over drug addiction. etc.. If they have no eternal hope then all is left meaningless and 5 million dollars can not even give them hope, only the power to medicate ones self from the reality of this existence. So remember that next time you see some big star crash and burn and wonder how anyone, who had it all, how could they just throw it all away like that?
Way to simplify and piss all over the richness of the human experience, Bill! It never astounds me how some Christians basically use their theology to escape responsibility for this life here and now. You must really despise being alive. Personally, I'm going to enjoy the view while I'm around.
quote:
Way to simplify and piss all over the richness of the human experience, Bill!
(bill) You can talk about your "richness" all you want. Meanwhile Siberia is contemplating suicide and does not really seem to be enjoying this whole "richness of the human experience" that you speak of...
quote:
It never astounds me how some Christians basically use their theology to escape responsibility for this life here and now.
(bill) Yet you are the one who will terminate any "potential" "parasitic" human life growing inside you simply so you won't be inconvenienced. So rather then take responsibility you eliminate it.
quote:
You must really despise being alive.
(bill) With two new little girls at home, I cherish every breath that I am given given.
quote:
Personally, I'm going to enjoy the view while I'm around.
(bill) You have freewill. But I would not get comfortable in my existence if I were you.
"We are like butterflies who flutter for a day and think it's forever" -Carl Sagan
I agree wholeheartedly with Carl here, in the scope of eternity, our lives are but a puff of smoke.
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 05:59:40 [Permalink]
|
Uh Bill, Siberia is confined to a wheelchair with juvenile, rheumatoid arthritis, and has been for most of her life.
Walk a mile in her shoes before you run your mouth.
She is doing very damned well, studying and working full time. Our respect for her here is vast, and you putting words in her mouth and twisting her meanings only shows you to be a bigoted ass.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
| Edited by - filthy on 03/16/2006 06:04:15 |
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 06:30:46 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
Uh Bill, Siberia is confined to a wheelchair with juvenile, rheumatoid arthritis, and has been for most of her life.
Walk a mile in her shoes before you run your mouth.
She is doing very damned well, studying and working full time. Our respect for her here is vast, and you putting words in her mouth and twisting her meanings only shows you to be a bigoted ass.
quote:
Uh Bill, Siberia is confined to a wheelchair with juvenile, rheumatoid arthritis, and has been for most of her life.
(bill) I read that.
quote:
Walk a mile in her shoes before you run your mouth.
(bill) If I could, I would. In reality I can only walk in my shoes and make my observations on the world I live in from here. But I can gather what all others say about their own walk in their own shoes. After compiling all the data the conclusion, beyond any doubt, is that, without eternal hope, all come to the conclusion of an ultimately meaningless existence in the naturalistic universe.
quote:
She is doing very damned well, studying and working full time.
(bill) That is great and I fully commend her for her efforts. But as I said earlier all, without eternal hope, will still find a meaningless existence in the naturalistic universe, even when buried in their studies and/or full time work. This does not change if your physically challenged or not.
quote:
Our respect for her here is vast,
(bill) From what I know of her so far I share that respect with you.
quote:
and you putting words in her mouth and twisting her meanings only shows you to be a bigoted ass.
(bill) She is the one who said that she contemplates suicide. I take that very seriously and my only mission is to give her hope where she currently has no hope. If she chooses to dismiss my efforts then there is nothing left that I can do. But I will not sit back and say nothing when one has basically said they have lost all hope or are hanging on with very little hope.
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Valiant Dancer
Forum Goalie
USA
4826 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 06:30:51 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by verso
The doctor should definitely pay for his incompetence. Not the child, however.
quote:
Try, we have come to love you deeply, but we would have never put you through such extended pain, suffering, and poor quality of life.
I haven't known many mentally handicapped people, but the 2 that I HAVE known were very happy to be alive - full of life and joy.
And you base this on two whole people. Wow. Any of them mongoloids? Any of them profoundly mentally handicapped to where they are capable only of lying in a crib in a constant state of confusion and pain?
quote:
To decide for someone that their life will be of low quality, and then to decide to end it for them for that reason - is disgusting.
Sez you. And do note that I am not talking about all handicapped children, just those with severe genetic problems.
quote:
This obviously isn't true for many people, who truly believe their handicapped child will lead low quality lives, and think they are doing the best thing - but I would hazard to say - most parents will end the life because they don't want to deal with a handicapped child. Not because they believe the child will lead a miserable life. "We don't want our child to experience a low quality life" is a cheap, sick cop-out.
Then they should opt to keep the child. The decision should be up to the parents, not government on whether that call is right or not. Your hazard of a guess is complete and utter bullshit. Have you ever been in that situation? I have. The decision was based on quality of life. The zygotes that my wife and I decided not to implant had doubled chromosomes and had a 100% chance of mongoloidism. So don't give me that "convienince" bullshit. I think it more the perception you have to have to justify your position. |
Cthulhu/Asmodeus when you're tired of voting for the lesser of two evils
Brother Cutlass of Reasoned Discussion |
| Edited by - Valiant Dancer on 03/16/2006 06:37:28 |
|
|
|
Dave W.
Info Junkie
USA
26022 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 07:14:40 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
After compiling all the data the conclusion, beyond any doubt, is that, without eternal hope, all come to the conclusion of an ultimately meaningless existence in the naturalistic universe.
Your "beyond any doubt" is mistaken. My existence in this naturalistic universe is very meaningful, for example. That you can't find meaning without the carrot of "eternal hope" (and the stick of Hell) is simply a sign of how meaningless you consider your own life, despite your protestations otherwise.
After all, isn't it true that you think that once all three of you are dead, you and your daughters will be together for eternity? If so, shouldn't it be true that you would seek to end all three lives as quickly as possible (within God's rules)? Why is it that you're thankful for more time on this dirtball? |
- Dave W. (Private Msg, EMail)
Evidently, I rock!
Why not question something for a change?
Visit Dave's Psoriasis Info, too. |
|
|
|
filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 07:34:10 [Permalink]
|
quote:
(bill) She is the one who said that she contemplates suicide. I take that very seriously and my only mission is to give her hope where she currently has no hope. If she chooses to dismiss my efforts then there is nothing left that I can do. But I will not sit back and say nothing when one has basically said they have lost all hope or are hanging on with very little hope.
I rather suspect that 'most everybody comtemplates suicide at one time or another. I certainly have, but I'm still here.
An intangable hope of an afterlife isn't really much to go with. Far better to make the very best that you can of your life and let death, a process as natural and normal as living, take care of itself.
|
"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist!
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 08:22:19 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
After compiling all the data the conclusion, beyond any doubt, is that, without eternal hope, all come to the conclusion of an ultimately meaningless existence in the naturalistic universe.
Your "beyond any doubt" is mistaken. My existence in this naturalistic universe is very meaningful, for example. That you can't find meaning without the carrot of "eternal hope" (and the stick of Hell) is simply a sign of how meaningless you consider your own life, despite your protestations otherwise.
After all, isn't it true that you think that once all three of you are dead, you and your daughters will be together for eternity? If so, shouldn't it be true that you would seek to end all three lives as quickly as possible (within God's rules)? Why is it that you're thankful for more time on this dirtball?
quote:
Your "beyond any doubt" is mistaken. My existence in this naturalistic universe is very meaningful, for example.
(bill) It might be temporarily meaningful, to you, but in 70 years from now when your complete existence and your complete ID have been annihilated, then all of your life experiences end in a meaningless non-existence. And so therefore, ultimately, your existence is rendered meaningless anyway, even if you subscribe meaning to it while it exists. No matter how much you try and convince yourself that it is not.
quote:
That you can't find meaning without the carrot of "eternal hope" (and the stick of Hell) is simply a sign of how meaningless you consider your own life,
(bill) How wrong you are. The state in which you will spend your eternal existence is determined in this life, giving this life an infinite and eternal worth for me, rather then a meaningless sense of worth that comes from the naturalistic universe.
quote:
After all, isn't it true that you think that once all three of you are dead, you and your daughters will be together for eternity?
(bill) Possibly. All three of us will spend eternity somewhere, my hope is that it is together. That is why I cherish every breath I have with them. I long for the day when I can share my hope for eternal life with them.
quote:
If so, shouldn't it be true that you would seek to end all three lives as quickly as possible (within God's rules)?
(bill) Do I long for heaven? Yes. Does that cause me to have suicidal thoughts, or cause me to consider crossing a busy highway without looking, or want to take up smoking, all in an effort to end my life here quickly? No, off course not.
quote:
Why is it that you're thankful for more time on this dirtball?
(bill) It gives me more time to share my eternal hope with those who have lost all hope. Some listen and some don't. Money can not buy you the high you get when you can give one hope who previously had no hope. Eternal hope is the message that can impact all. Young or old, rich or poor, black or white.
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 08:36:13 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
(bill) She is the one who said that she contemplates suicide. I take that very seriously and my only mission is to give her hope where she currently has no hope. If she chooses to dismiss my efforts then there is nothing left that I can do. But I will not sit back and say nothing when one has basically said they have lost all hope or are hanging on with very little hope.
I rather suspect that 'most everybody comtemplates suicide at one time or another. I certainly have, but I'm still here.
An intangable hope of an afterlife isn't really much to go with. Far better to make the very best that you can of your life and let death, a process as natural and normal as living, take care of itself.
quote:
I rather suspect that 'most everybody comtemplates suicide at one time or another. I certainly have, but I'm still here.
(bill) Agreed including myself, and the whole seemingly meaninglessness of life, I submit, has a lot to do with this.
quote:
An intangable hope of an afterlife isn't really much to go with. Far better to make the very best that you can of your life and let death, a process as natural and normal as living, take care of itself.
(bill) That is for sure your freewill descision, but like I reminded marf, do not get to comfortable in this existence...
"We are like butterflies who flutter for a day and think it's forever" -Carl Sagan
I agree wholeheartedly with Carl here, in the scope of eternity, our lives are but a puff of smoke.
|
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
|
|
|
|
Siberia
SFN Addict
Brazil
2322 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 08:41:45 [Permalink]
|
quote:
Originally posted by filthy
quote:
(bill) She is the one who said that she contemplates suicide. I take that very seriously and my only mission is to give her hope where she currently has no hope. If she chooses to dismiss my efforts then there is nothing left that I can do. But I will not sit back and say nothing when one has basically said they have lost all hope or are hanging on with very little hope.
I rather suspect that 'most everybody comtemplates suicide at one time or another. I certainly have, but I'm still here.
An intangable hope of an afterlife isn't really much to go with. Far better to make the very best that you can of your life and let death, a process as natural and normal as living, take care of itself.
So am I... I think.
And keep in mind, I contemplated suicide not because I hurt oh-so-much (to be honest, I could care less. I'm used to pain, fever, mental strain, whatever, I won't quit that easily), but because I see I make others hurt oh so much for my sake. My existence doesn't matter to me nearly as much as their happiness.
And no, I have no hope of eternal life. That's why I'm still alive. |
"Why are you afraid of something you're not even sure exists?"
- The Kovenant, Via Negativa
"People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs."
-- unknown
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|
Topic Locked
