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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
 Posted - 04/07/2006 : 11:01:36 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by trogdor
this is the Culix pipiens I was talking about:
Another issue that is continually brought up by creationists is the fact that no one has ever seen a species evolve. Darwin assumed that because the earth was extraordinarily old, any species would have many, many years to evolve and therefore no human would be alive for long enough to observe evolution in action.(Darwin, 123) Despite this fact, anti-evolutionists continue to use this idea to try to disprove Darwin. Recent evidence from mosquitoes in the London Underground has shown that species can indeed evolve in decades not centuries.
When the London subway system was being built, a small number of mosquitoes, of the species Culex pipiens found their way into the tunnel. Because these mosquitoes normally feed on birds, and because there were no birds in the subway system, new food sources had to be found. After 100 years of natural selection and evolution, now the subway mosquitoes are different. This table shows the differences between the aboveground populations of pipiens and the underground population, dubbed molestus
character molestus Pipiens
breeding site Hypogeous Epigeous
(underground) (above ground)
Mating Stenogamous Eurygamous
(occurs in confined spaces) (cannot occur in confined spaces)
Host preference Mamophilic ornotherophilic
(bites mammals) (bites birds)
Egg production Autogenous anautogenous
(oviposition without a blood meal) (requires oviposition for blood meal)
Life cycle Homodynamic Heterodynamic
(no winter diapause) (Winter diapause)
(Nichols & Byrne, 8).
Two researchers at the University of London, Richard Nichols and Katharine Bryne, studied both populations of pipiens mosquitoes and found that they are very different genetically as well (Nichols & Byrne, 7). The differences within the two populations are minimal, about 2-5%. But on the other hand, when the two populations are compared to each other, the difference is much more apparent, closer to 20% (Nichols & Bryne, 10). This difference is incredible, proof that evolution can happen on short time scales.
quote:
After 100 years of natural selection and evolution, now the subway mosquitoes are different.
(bill) So what? They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!... |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 04/07/2006 11:06:28 |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 11:04:06 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Another evolutionist claiming to have a rock that supports macroevolution that was peered reviewed by more evolutionist. So what?
Yep it is all a vast conspiracy.
quote:
When you trace the lineage of the stubby foot whale creature back to the first "simple primordial entities" of life, which evolved into "fishapod", and then you tell me how these "primordial entities" first formed, and from what, and the process was guided by whom, then I will be impressed.
Hmm, you will be impressed when you know something that is impossible happens. No wonder you beleive in god. 
The problem with your statement is that no matter how complete the tree becomes, you will always find a problem with it.
And "and the process was guided by whom" could never have a definitive answer, so there is no way for your statement to be fullfilled. How honest of you.
quote:
Yep it is all a vast conspiracy.
(bill) Well that or indoctranation through ignorance. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 11:38:23 [Permalink]
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| It appears that you missed the bus on the whole, evolution takes a long time to create more significant changes bit. And not a Young Earth Creationist long time. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 11:45:58 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
It appears that you missed the bus on the whole, evolution takes a long time to create more significant changes bit. And not a Young Earth Creationist long time.
I don't care if they only take 25 years to change. They are still mosquitoes! |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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BigPapaSmurf
SFN Die Hard
3192 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 12:13:23 [Permalink]
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| I meant to change into something we would have to classify as something other than mosquito it would take many thousands of years, so bitching about that point when we have only been looking for 100 years is goofy. |
"...things I have neither seen nor experienced nor heard tell of from anybody else; things, what is more, that do not in fact exist and could not ever exist at all. So my readers must not believe a word I say." -Lucian on his book True History
"...They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time." -Lucian critical of early Christians c.166 AD From his book, De Morte Peregrini |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 12:22:00 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by BigPapaSmurf
I meant to change into something we would have to classify as something other than mosquito it would take many thousands of years, so bitching about that point when we have only been looking for 100 years is goofy.
So you equate mosqutios, who lost their food source and have adapted to a new food source, as evidence for macroevolution? That is microevolution which I have no problem with... |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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| Edited by - Bill scott on 04/07/2006 12:24:12 |
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 12:32:29 [Permalink]
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quote:
Another evolutionist claiming to have a rock that supports macroevolution that was peered reviewed by more evolutionist. So what?
Maybe I wasn't clear. I asked you what you thought about the fossil.
So to you this is just a rock? Do you believe the age of this rock to be accurate? Do you believe the dating techniques used are accurate?
What, exactly, do you think this "rock" is and how to you account for its existence? |
by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 12:40:27 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Another evolutionist claiming to have a rock that supports macroevolution that was peered reviewed by more evolutionist. So what?
Maybe I wasn't clear. I asked you what you thought about the fossil.
So to you this is just a rock? Do you believe the age of this rock to be accurate? Do you believe the dating techniques used are accurate?
What, exactly, do you think this "rock" is and how to you account for its existence?
The first I saw of this was yesterday. They had a link to a site on the Drudgereport. I have only had time to glance over the piece briefly. I will have to look into this farther before I can give any details. I do remeber in the peice I did glance over they said 380 millions years, I think, but did not say how they came to this conclusion. |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 12:47:59 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Another evolutionist claiming to have a rock that supports macroevolution that was peered reviewed by more evolutionist. So what?
Maybe I wasn't clear. I asked you what you thought about the fossil.
So to you this is just a rock? Do you believe the age of this rock to be accurate? Do you believe the dating techniques used are accurate?
What, exactly, do you think this "rock" is and how to you account for its existence?
quote:
and how to you account for its existence?
Let me guess, as a man of science, you will not except my answer of, "it was just there and how it got there is irrelevant.", will you?
But yet when it comes to Darwin's "primordial entities" here I just have to accept your statment that, "They were just there bill, and how they got there is irrelevant."?!?!?! |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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pleco
SFN Addict
USA
2998 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 12:51:49 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Let me guess, as a man of science, you will not except my answer of, "it was just there and how it got there is irrelevant.", will you?
But yet when it comes to Darwin's "primordial entities" here I just have to accept your statment that, "They were just there bill, and how they got there is irrelevant."?!?!?!
Abiogenesis != evolution. That is the answer whether you like or not.
It has nothing to do with this no matter how you hard try to frame it, and I think you know that too.
I take it then you won't be responding to the question other than hand waving?
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by Filthy
The neo-con methane machine will soon be running at full fart. |
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filthy
SFN Die Hard
USA
14408 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 13:03:14 [Permalink]
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"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -- Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
"If only we could impeach on the basis of criminal stupidity, 90% of the Rethuglicans and half of the Democrats would be thrown out of office." ~~ P.Z. Myres
"The default position of human nature is to punch the other guy in the face and take his stuff." ~~ Dude
Brother Boot Knife of Warm Humanitarianism,
and Crypto-Communist! 
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Bill scott
SFN Addict
USA
2103 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 14:20:40 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Let me guess, as a man of science, you will not except my answer of, "it was just there and how it got there is irrelevant.", will you?
But yet when it comes to Darwin's "primordial entities" here I just have to accept your statment that, "They were just there bill, and how they got there is irrelevant."?!?!?!
Abiogenesis != evolution. That is the answer whether you like or not.
It has nothing to do with this no matter how you hard try to frame it, and I think you know that too.
I take it then you won't be responding to the question other than hand waving?
quote:
Abiogenesis != evolution. That is the answer whether you like or not.
Yes, please tell me more about this abiogenesis that you speak of. Did abiogenesis program the "simple entities" that Darwin spoke of or did they apear with no information what so ever?
BTW God=Reality, wether you like it or not... |
"Lets get one thing clear, Bill. Science does make some assumptions." -perrodetokio-
"In the end as skeptics we must realize that there is no real knowledge, there is only what is most reasonable to believe." -Coelacanth-
The fact that humans do science is what causes errors in science. -Dave W.-
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Hawks
SFN Regular
Canada
1383 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 15:12:53 [Permalink]
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quote:
BTW God=Reality, wether you like it or not...
BTW Trees=fantasy, wether you like it or not... |
METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL
It's a small, off-duty czechoslovakian traffic warden! |
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trogdor
Skeptic Friend
198 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 15:18:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by trogdor
this is the Culix pipiens I was talking about:
Another issue that is continually brought up by creationists is the fact that no one has ever seen a species evolve. Darwin assumed that because the earth was extraordinarily old, any species would have many, many years to evolve and therefore no human would be alive for long enough to observe evolution in action.(Darwin, 123) Despite this fact, anti-evolutionists continue to use this idea to try to disprove Darwin. Recent evidence from mosquitoes in the London Underground has shown that species can indeed evolve in decades not centuries.
When the London subway system was being built, a small number of mosquitoes, of the species Culex pipiens found their way into the tunnel. Because these mosquitoes normally feed on birds, and because there were no birds in the subway system, new food sources had to be found. After 100 years of natural selection and evolution, now the subway mosquitoes are different. This table shows the differences between the aboveground populations of pipiens and the underground population, dubbed molestus
character molestus Pipiens
breeding site Hypogeous Epigeous
(underground) (above ground)
Mating Stenogamous Eurygamous
(occurs in confined spaces) (cannot occur in confined spaces)
Host preference Mamophilic ornotherophilic
(bites mammals) (bites birds)
Egg production Autogenous anautogenous
(oviposition without a blood meal) (requires oviposition for blood meal)
Life cycle Homodynamic Heterodynamic
(no winter diapause) (Winter diapause)
(Nichols & Byrne, 8).
Two researchers at the University of London, Richard Nichols and Katharine Bryne, studied both populations of pipiens mosquitoes and found that they are very different genetically as well (Nichols & Byrne, 7). The differences within the two populations are minimal, about 2-5%. But on the other hand, when the two populations are compared to each other, the difference is much more apparent, closer to 20% (Nichols & Bryne, 10). This difference is incredible, proof that evolution can happen on short time scales.
quote:
After 100 years of natural selection and evolution, now the subway mosquitoes are different.
(bill) So what? They are still mosquitoes! They did not turn into whales or lizards or anything else. They are still mosquitoes!...
ahh but Bill you said very clearly in your last post that no evolution happens between species. You were wrong. don't go changing your mind on me now. that would be dishonest |
all eyes were on Ford Prefect. some of them were on stalks.
-Douglas Adams |
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trogdor
Skeptic Friend
198 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2006 : 15:27:15 [Permalink]
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quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
quote:
Originally posted by pleco
quote:
Originally posted by Bill scott
Another evolutionist claiming to have a rock that supports macroevolution that was peered reviewed by more evolutionist. So what?
Yep it is all a vast conspiracy.
quote:
When you trace the lineage of the stubby foot whale creature back to the first "simple primordial entities" of life, which evolved into "fishapod", and then you tell me how these "primordial entities" first formed, and from what, and the process was guided by whom, then I will be impressed.
Hmm, you will be impressed when you know something that is impossible happens. No wonder you beleive in god.
The problem with your statement is that no matter how complete the tree becomes, you will always find a problem with it.
And "and the process was guided by whom" could never have a definitive answer, so there is no way for your statement to be fullfilled. How honest of you.
quote:
Yep it is all a vast conspiracy.
(bill) Well that or indoctranation through ignorance.
hmmm... hee.... BWHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
thanks Bill, now there's water all over my computer |
all eyes were on Ford Prefect. some of them were on stalks.
-Douglas Adams |
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